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Most of this post is good advice but the pool of men you advise to avoid leaves someone even in their early to mid thirties with a small range of men to choose from, especially if you apply the guideline that the man should be ideally years older than you.

I feel excluding men over 40 and divorced men is going to make a difficult task impossible,although I can understand your reasoning. But overall advice appreciated. I will say that the year ideal is less important in your 30s, since men over 30 are more inclined to settle down. I wouldn't exclude divorced men. Divorce rates are awfully high in the US so a great amount of single men over a certain age are divorced. However the amount of "serial husbands" is smaller - plenty of second marriages are for life.

Men who end up having plenty of marriage throughout life are in minority. I see friends of my parents who got married very young for the wrong reasons and found a new wife late in life, and the have remained together.

Thanks so much for the post Andrew! Usually the only place to get this kind of info is via the manosphere, but it comes with the price of being pretty brutal and eventually demoralizing to read.

I really appreciate you managing to be candid about this topic in a way that still gives us a ray of hope: And I was waiting for the "Women in Their 30s" edition: I'm 34, so when dating I'm usually thinking as being ideal, but since is the most desirable age group for men and I can't necessarily compete with younger women for the most desirable men , then I look at divorced as being the next best way to use my time wisely.

It was based on something I read that said never married men over 40 are far less likely to marry than divorced men over I wouldn't rule out men between 34 and They are within your grasp. See my comment above at Andrew, someone like you should not have children. I'd get the tubes cut if I were you because that level of analness and narrow-mindedness would make for a fucked up kid.

None of this stuff is an exact science, and I guess you're generalizing, but I hope you don't believe what you do with such precision. I would love to see the type of woman you're dating. Her mom is 2 years older than the dad, and they are perfect. Rather than proclaim that there are exceptions to this "rule" perhaps consider that there's a universe of possibilities, and, particularly in this example, there are a number of possible outcomes.

For example, I think you have an older sister. How old is she and is she single? Would you tell your sister that she should only dates in a 5 year window of ages? Anonymous Feb 17, , 2: Andrew claims that "yes, there are some exceptions, but you are not one of them," but I just wonder how someone would be able to determine that when they have not met the individuals who they claim are "not one" of the exceptions, and when they do not know of said individuals' situation and circumstances.

Please keep the venom to yourself. If you knew it was completely false, you would have simply laughed, navigated to another blog, and forgotten about it. But something compelled you to make a comment. Look, no one here is arguing that it is actually better for a woman to always date older men.

And no one is claiming that there are absolutely no exceptions to the age "rule. So believe what you want. But at least take away the point that age matters, and try to be honest with yourself about how much. Let's leave it at that. Not sure how credible this is, but it shows the average age of marriage back to Notwithstanding all of that, you can probably tell when screwed up people had screwed up parents. Wouldn't categorize a person in that way, though it sounds like you don't agree with Andrew.

Here is another http: I disagree with assigning numbers or at least being strict about the numbers. It's more important to marry the right person than marry out of a statistical obligation. My mom is a year older than my dad. They got married in their late 20s. One of my best friends is in his early 40s. He is not married. He is unmarried because the woman he wanted to marry had breast cancer and died.

I've had two men ask me to marry them at 23 and 26 and I turned both of them down because it didn't feel right. So my point is that there are generalities, which may be different from reality.

Shocking how Anonymous Feb 17, , 2: While there are always outliers, Andrew addressed this topic in a truthful manner. Sure, your best friend's neighbor's 34yo sister snagged a tall, handsome, single, 35yo doctor who proposed to her after a year, but the odds of you finding that are like hitting the lottery.

It wasn't my "best friend's neighbor's 34yo sister snagged a tall, handsome, single, 35yo doctor who proposed to her after a year" but I do know of many other such matches. You don't know me, so you can't possibly come to the conclusion that my "odds of me finding that are like hitting the lottery. No, I don't know you, nor does anyone else since you posted as "Anonymous". But please, continue to make yourself look foolish and delusional in this case and in your knowledge of outcomes and probabilities and sure you know many other such matches.

It would be one thing if this post was directed specifically to you and your cohort, but it's not. Again, you don't know me, so you can't come to that conclusion. Nor is my viewpoint intended to be harmful. I believe in probabilities to an extent, and I do think it would be a good idea for people to consider them, I just don't believe they should base their whole lives on it, because the probability is not always right. What kind of woman would spit out words such as "you better tie your tubes because you should not have kids" in the context of an online discussion about relationships?

That level of bitterness is hard to find. More reason why we should take our time in getting to know someone. So many build up walls to not confront it, and it actually makes them less attractive. Girls in their early 30s still have some value, but you need to be perfect. This is a good post. I am 37 and I can tell you that my other guy friends generally don't want women in their mids unless those women are exceptionally attractive. In my mind, dating was so much easier for a woman around my age than it has been for the men, so we automatically assume, rightly or wrongly, that the women our age have slept around and are now only interested in snagging a man for marriage because the quality of man they can sleep around with has decreased their the woman's age.

My friends and I are white collar professionals who spent a lot of time in school and worked like dogs throughout our 20s and into our early 30s. We are now at a place where we make good money, aren't working the way we used to, and would like to find a woman to settle down with.

One of the biggest issues I have with women particularly in their mids is that they have really, really crappy attitudes and almost seem more entitled than younger women. One would think that a woman in her mids would realize that her time is running out and would therefore be on her best behavior and would want to give a man a reason why he should want to be with her, but in my experience this is just not true.

Perhaps these women are used to dating men well out of their league who only use them for sex and that warped their view of what kind of man they "deserve. A woman in her 30s should be going for a stable man years older. Unless she is exceptionally attractive, most men her age will be able to get a younger and more attractive woman, so she needs to go older.

Men also assume that a woman in her mids is more likely to have pregnancy difficulties than a younger woman, so that also makes the mids woman less attractive. I have noticed that at my age women in their late 20s who meet me are attracted to me, so I personally wouldn't settle for a mids woman unless she was almost perfect and I think that most of my peers feel the same way.

No cruising along in the salad years. Very little travel outside of work. I basically worked, took care of my extended family, and stayed fit.

I wasn't hitting clubs or chasing tail for ONS and no-strings sex, though I had plenty of opportunities. For a number of years I was in a LTR that dissolved. But at this point 39 , I'm self-employed, live well below my means and have a nice retirement portfolio. I'm looking for a Wife. A concept that seems to be constantly conflated with a "wedding" for the single somethings. And I agree too that part of establishing Wife material is to understand how and why they are single at I've got zero interest in being a "settle-down" guy.

Help me unwind that view and all is good. I'm shocked at how few women can even imagine that this male perspective exists, let alone are actively engaging in defusing it - that is, if they can.

That is a notion that tends to fall through the cracks a bit in all the advice floating about. We all have to own up to the truth at some point, the results of our actions, decisions. I've had to do it a handful of times, it sucks, but I've just worked too hard and sacrificed too much over the years to take that kind of risk. Yet women I meet too often launch into proving their worth by unknowingly waving all of the red-flags. The message here needs to get out to these women. I prefer women closer to my age, but I am having an increasingly difficult time holding onto that view.

I totally agree with you regarding "I'm NOT impressed by your world travel. Whenever a woman starts going on about traveling, I automatically assume that she is self-centered, as most of the women I meet who travel a lot really do seem to be very in to themselves.

Perhaps women are impressed by people who travel a lot, but I am not.

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If you met me in real life, you would never guess that I was Not in a million years. I look young for my age I am late twenties and still get confused for a teen BUT some men do have a weird thing about age and I guess for a man who wants many children it is relevant even if the lady is a major hottie after You can look amazing etc. I would not expect a family orientated guy to be as into the idea of settling down with me in five years time as he would now. Yes, you are right They just assume that I'm way younger than I am, pretty much a decade, and this is not an exaggeration.

The problem is, if they did know my real age, it would probably be off-putting to a good extent. But this is where I can filter out the men who are looking for something serious, and guys who just want to waste my time. When they find out that I'm 30, they will probably not pursue further if they are not completely serious about me, and actually ready for marriage, and kids pretty soon.

Guys that want the luxury of time to explore whether I'm right for them for years will probably venture elsewhere, and that is fine for me, too.

Although, to be honest, I have met men who don't care and will want to waste my time anyway, and this is where I still have to filter appropriately. But I still think there is a difference between being a woman at 30, and being a woman at 35, although I still know very beautiful women at 35 who are doing fine. Hey Anonymous hot 30 year-old. Hot women have a lot of power so you may want to use that to your advantage and approach men, either online or in real life, especially through friend circles.

You don't even need to ask out, just talk to guys. Most guys are thinking that they shouldn't approach women because she'll bitch out at him or think he's a stalker so use your experience to discern who might be some good guys and just have a conversation with them.

If you like what you hear from them then drop some hints like you love to do x, y or z and I bet some of them will take the bait and ask you out. I am just wondering how DO you get men to approach you if the kinds of men you want to date do not approach you?

Since my long term relationship ended I have been almost consistently propositioned by cocky player kinds who are not ready to settle down or who think they do for a few weeks.. I have learned to recognize and filter out these kinds now and have turned down advances from very attractive men that I know are trouble.

I am still in my late twenties but I know that I want to settle down and marry.. A guy I know told me that it is because nice guys might be too intimidated to approach when really I would love to interact with these kinds of men especially before I turn Annie, You can't force men to approach you; you have to attract them.

Some men won't approach even when you are as attractive as you can be. It is an intimidating thing to do, and not all men have the balls.

I would recommend a two-pronged approach: This will encourage more men to approach you. Then b , work on expanding your social circle, where meetings with men will be facilitated. I think it's a total myth that a guy will be repulsed if a girl he finds attractive does any of the three above. Yeah, once you've gotten the ball rolling then he should make more of the effort to pursue but in today's culture where women regularly call guys creeps and stalkers and pervs and delight in blowing out guys who approach them, you can understand why some guys are a bit hesitant to approach.

I would be happy if a woman I found attractive approached me for a conversation and assuming there was some mutual spark I would be more than thrilled if she suggested getting together. I, of course, actually do ask women out but I wouldn't be put off if a woman approached me and give signs she was interested or outright asked me out.

Even if a woman approached me that I wasn't interested in I wouldn't act like a dick. And if she asked me out and I wasn't interested I would politely decline. Women have made it tougher for men to approach with their collectively too entitled and stuck-up attitudes not all women are like that and so that's why you tend to get more of the cocky players as the only ones approaching because the good guys have been partially taught to not bother women or make them feel uncomfortable.

So, you women have to make it easier for men to approach and show more interest yourselves and even ask guys out. Of course, don't ask out a guy that's out of your league--if you're a 6, don't expect to ask out an 8 and have him be excited--and then say, "See, it doesn't work!!! Too many women have an overrated view of their attractiveness because they do get a lot of the players dipping down in attractiveness for casual sex and think that's the level of guy they could get for a bf.

Andrew-Thanks for posting this. I have some questions about a comment you made in point 3, titled "Recognize your disadvantage.

You said, "I am not dating her anymore. She also looked like a 25 year old, which made me less concerned about her age. I did, however, get the impression that she didn't respect me because I was younger. She essentially told me this at one point. THIS, more than the fact that she was older, was a big problem. In your Some Older Women are Smart post, you said you were "less concerned" about the older woman's age you were dating because she "looked like a 25 year old," but in your Female Game for Women in their 30s post, you commented to 30 plus women that; "You can tell yourself repeatedly that you look young for your age.

And yet, even you broke your own rule at one point to date an older woman because she looked younger than her age. So I'm just a bit confused. Do you feel that a woman who looks younger than her age has an advantage and that more men will be attracted and willing to date her?

Even men like yourself who say they prefer younger women? Or are her youthful looks irrelevant and does it really all just come down to her chronological age?

Just wanted to clarify that when I made the comment, "This statement seemed to imply that you think that a 30 plus woman who looks younger than her age is irrelevant, and doesn't have much bearing on her success in dating and finding a husband," I wasn't trying to ask you if you thought a 30 plus woman is irrelevant, I was just asking if a 30 plus woman who appears younger than her actual age is relevant to her having an advantage in dating and getting married.

I'm sure you knew what I meant, but just thought I'd mention it for clarity's sake. Thanks for your question. I can see where the confusion comes from, but it is easily explained. Regarding the fact that I went out with an older girl: If a man deems an older woman hot enough and enjoys her company, then he risks nothing by trying to date her - except perhaps that she might not want a younger boyfriend which is unattractive to some women. But he doesn't need to worry about getting banged and dumped after laying down emotional ties.

The fact that I wanted to give it a shot with an older women does not disprove the rule in any way. So the fact that I went on a handful of dates with an older girl shouldn't raise an eyebrow. The comment "You can tell yourself repeatedly that you look young for your age" is aimed at women who do NOT look young for their age, but try to convince themselves that they do.

Women that DO look young for their age DO have a better chance with younger men. A youthful look is definitely an advantage, but it doesn't make an older woman a better candidate if the man is interested in having kids. Most women in their 30s, no matter how attractive, smart and awesome they are, can't expect to attract, to the same extent, those men they could attract easily in their 20s. I know quite a few women many of them my friends , attractive, smart, successful, wonderful, wonderful women who got married in their mid 30s to financially stable, responsible, mature men.

The only thing about these men is that their looks are nothing to write home about - average to below average, their only saving grace being their sense of hygiene and grooming skills.

The very men whom my friends would have rejected straight out in their 20s, due to their lack of looks, physique and general hotness. My friends were realistic in their expectations and decided that was the best they could attract. Those who didn't want to compromise are still single and little chance now of starting a family of their own.

I intended that this would be implied in the point "Recognize your disadvantage" i. While I read your blog often like daily, and kudos because the male perspective is so helpful and coughI'm 34cough , I couldn't help last night but to think Ignorance was bliss until I was I understand your concern, but I think that sensitivity to the issue in this case would merely obscure the truth.

I can promise you that no man selecting from a crowd of women thinks "well, the girl in her 30s over there isn't quite as attractive as the one in her late 20s over there; but I know it is tough for the one in her 30s to keep up her appearance, so I am going to ignore the hotter one and go for her instead. All I am telling you is what you should do in light of how men choose women. If it happens to be difficult - c'est la vie I'm reading a lot about this in the comments, about how men in their 30's are going to go for somethings if they want kids and this just makes me laugh.

Most somethings are not going to go for a something man if they are looking for marriage and kids. They will use the something man for sex and his wallet, but if she wants to get married and is good looking and she will be if somethings are after her she has plenty of options in the something range to marry.

Just as Andrew said he never picked the older woman because he didn't want to look back 20 years in the future at younger women and think he could have had that, women don't want to either. Or, be bound to a guy she has to take care of when she is still in her prime. But, that isn't what this blog is about so I will leave it at that.

Rather, I think something women who are reading this and think "I'm SOL" can take a little bit of confront that the reports of all the options men in their 30's have with younger women are greatly exaggeration. If nothing else, think back to your 20's and with your friends. How many were willing to date a man 7, 10 years her senior for any reason other than a sugar daddy? J and Anonymous 8: The most beautiful women and the most successful men — of any age — can do whatever they want. Everyone else has to compromise.

My preferred age is about 6 years younger so I would consider older than that relative to how much hotter she is. The oldest I would consider would be about 26 or But as you say many younger women ignore me as too old as well — the market will dictate what you can get. To a man, looks are the end all be all. Having to "settle" for a woman who isn't hot is a fate worse than death. Heh, funny, my ex told me, "You are perfect for me in every way but one: But, back to the point, if I could find a guy who had most of the things I'm looking for in a life partner at 30, I wouldn't care if he looked like Quasi Moto or if he was a little older provided he was in good health - which most Americans are not.

No, in fact, as a lady looking for a husband and love in her 30's my problem isn't finding an attractive, age appropriate man to date even though I am not that attractive myself. There are plenty of hotties coming my way - it is finding a man who has what I really desire that is the problem.

Maybe it is just me, but I feel like so many men, 35 to 45, have had the best part of them used by another woman already, who chewed them up and then spit them out, and the remainder is all that is left for me. No, sorry, if can't offer me your best, I'll pass. If directed at me, I would think it means he is not attracted to me physically, and the rest of my "being perfect and whatnot" was just thrown in there to soften the blow.

This is consistent with what Andrew has been pointing out on this blog, that physical attraction plays an important role in men's selection of mates.

If you have plenty of hotties coming your way, then you are attractive, though not your ex' cup of tea obviously. J, when you say good looking women in their twenties have lots of options of guys their age to marry you're right. But only a minority of women in their 20's are good looking most, by definition are within a standard deviation of average so you're arguing your point by only using the good looking portion of the population.

So, yeah, some men overestimate how young they can go but it's not unrealistic for a guy in his mid 30's to get a woman in her late 20's. Anyway, once people are adults, they can make up their own minds and go for whom they like and see if they can attract that person. If not, then they have to re-evaluate.

As long as people are adults then there is no such thing as age-appropriate. That comes off sounding like older women trying to shame younger women away from older men "they're creepy" and older men away from younger women so that the older women can have the guys their age more for themselves. And, you know what? It's worked to some degree.

But women only shoot themselves in the foot if they won't consider a guy who's 5 years older if she's in her early 20's or 10 years older if she's in her late 20's or years older if she's in her mid 30's. Stats show that once a woman hits 30 and unmarried that her odds of marrying in the next 5 years are quite low. Women who really want to get married should do so in their 20's and if you hit your 30's unmarried then you really need to follow the great advice in this post.

And just so you don't think there is no hope, my cousin got married when she was 39 and has a kid now--but she is more of the outlier, not the norm. You can see what percent got married by looking five years further along and shifting up in age bracked by 5 years: Also, look at how in , that That's 1 in 6.

The change from We get [ So, that means that These numbers are taken from the U. Bottom line for women that DO want to marry and have kids: J, I have to disagree with your final comment Guys my age just want to have fun and fair enough, to be honest , but for a girl casual relationships generally end badly.

Also, it incredibly sexy when a guy has his act together - flat, job, good network of friends which a lot of guys in their early 20 haven't gotten around to yet. So you're actually looking to date guys that are 27 or older because you see them as more interested in and capable of a serious relationship. Definitely - I would think it more strange were a guy my age to want to get settled down so young.

I also like the idea of an older guy having dated a wider variety of women and so the chances of him knowing what's important to him in a relationship are higher. I am 22 and since taking the red pill I have stopped dating men under It's been working out incredibly!

I suggest that girls reading this blog in their 20s do the same. Most of these guys esp. I've already had to turn down a few great guys. They weren't right for me. No, I am not using them for money, I offer to pay all of the times we go out and eventually insist on paying on the 3rd date. That's how you let them know you aren't a gold digger.

Sorry to say this, but you might find it helpful Any 20 yr olds who won't consider older men should try it out. I don't want to date a hottie while I look gross and wrinkled. Everyone should check out Rollo's graph, http: Makes perfect sense to date older men. Amongst your female friends, what is the upper age range they would consider? At what age does a man showing interest start to make you feel uncomfortable? These are just rough numbers.

You also get a few in their 30's that put an age range of younger then themselves but they tend to not be looking for long-term or marriage as much. I'm not saying that they need to be a lot of women kind of think that if they have a degree so should their husband. I think it depends what you have to offer physically, socially, and professionally. As a women that is 25 and attended graduate school, I didn't feel like I wanted to 'date for marriage' until I get to a point in my career that I am happy with.

So prior to now, I would get advances from year old men that were ready to marry someone like me. Instead, I would only consider guys my age or yrs older. The older men, stable in their careers, would pressure me to drop everything and get married. They wanted to take care of me, but I was raised to build myself first. Now that I am 25, I find that I am finally ready to date 'for marriage'. I have built a career for myself and am more attractive than most girls in my field.

I am not interested in a sugar daddy. I am also not interested in dating someone that views me as a child or arm candy. My age range for eligible men is I also look young for my age because of my features. I get approached by men Take it as you will. Not to be harsh, but these are girls that graduated with majors that do not provide jobs or barely make ends meet. They get to be taken care of because the men that they graduate with, similar ambitions, are jobless and broke.

I heard this being said: Mothers of these girls telling them to hold onto these men for dear life. Notice the comment above from the 22 yr old It is a business arrangement, you get the young girl and I get the stability of money. Anon feb 18, 3: I agree with your comment to the 22 yr old young woman which was; "Just some input.

She seems pleased that these older men see her as some "hot 20 year old" and while I don't think that it's entirely negative for an older man to be happy about dating a younger, hot woman, her emphasis on being with an older man and not wanting to "date a hottie in the range while I look gross and wrinkled,' just seems a bit vain. And if her looks and youth are the main attraction points to the older men she dates, then who's to say their attraction for her will not wane or that she will not "be blown off" and disposed of when she hits 30 just like the women she and 30 something men smugly speak of and replaced for a younger, hotter 20 something?

By the time the men and women are 30, only 50 women have been married. Who married the other 50 men? Don't say younger women, because the cycle would continue forever as the younger women are marrying the available men in their group. Plus, his looks will have started to fade too so he won't find it so easy to get someone hotter.

She said she even pays for the 3rd date and implied she isn't a gold digger. Anyway, if she's happy with these men and they treat her well and not just as a sex toy then what's wrong with her dating them with the intent of finding a bf or husband? But if those men are bringing what she wants and vice versa then they can fall in love and be happy. Anonymous February 18, at 3: If a guy your age is wanting to settle down, he should be seen as someone who is mature for his age and who has his priorities together.

I mean, so many young women complain about men in their early 20's as being immature and wanting to sleep around, but if a guy that young is genuinely ready and willing to commit to one woman for the rest of his life, then he's a rare gem indeed and should be commended and respected for it. Plus, if he's that mature at such a young age, just imagine how exceptional he'll be when he's even older and has more experience in life.

I agree that the young male looking for commitment should be given a chance, assuming he has his act together and all that. I find an issue in someone that explicitly mentions paying for the 3rd date to 'not look like a gold digger'. Why would that thought even cross your mind, if you weren't one? Also, I would not be so harsh to stereotype a 22 year old dating a 30 year old from the get-go if I saw a reason for this.

If she had said it is because men her age are immature, I would have thought differently about the situation. Given her reasoning, it makes me a little uncomfortable. And older men dating young women like this realize it. She said that they drop older women over her Marriage is another ball game. If they do marry, it is because they have earned their way into buying someone they couldn't otherwise obtain.

Like old and ugly Hollywood actors with Stepford wives. I am pleased, mostly to have found the manosphere and Andrew's blog, but also because all of their advice has done wonders for my dating life and self esteem.

I am really not gold digging, I want what you want, love and marriage with a great guy. I found my age range and was just advising other girls to date older men. I did earn my degree and am doing quite well. I live comfortably in a very expensive city without my parents' help. I make more than most men my age. I just wanted to let some older women know that what Andrew is saying is not BS, older guys prefer younger girls and will go out of there way to be with a hot, young girl.

I thought it would be a helpful if not welcome truth: And also want to give a first person account. I'm filtering for good-hearted men that won't be inclined to dump me when I turn Thank you for the last post. Note that I am in my early 20s as well, happy to have found this blog. And I value your advice. Maybe I am more understanding because my ex is dating someone 19 as a 26 yr old. They are looking for love and marriage as well and perhaps more critically so then us.

Remember that we could be single and reading this blog 10 years from now. Let's try to be a little sentimental to the feelings of those women. Not everyone is lucky enough to find love and others are learning to chose men a little late in the game. But love is possible for all. I do very well. I take Andrew's advice meaning I wait a while before I ever go to bed with a guy. Good luck with your situation. Just because she doesn't want to be perceived as a gold digger doesn't mean she is one!

What kind of fallacy of logic is that? Maybe she simply isn't a gold-digger but knows that a young woman going for an older guy might be suspected of that and so she is trying to show her true colors i.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. And the whole bit about older guys preferring younger girls' looks Obviously, older guys value other things besides looks as well and many can't get the younger woman, etc. Having a career also means that your children will enjoy the security of two income-producing parents, and that your household will sustain less impact in an economic downturn. To me, maintaining a career is as important as working out to stay fit. All this talk about "gold-digging" is ridiculous.

Women are attracted to power, and that includes financial power. It says something about the man, more than his income alone.

Andrew did a post about intelligence where he mentioned different kinds of power - all of these are relevant. But financial power or success is particularly relevant because it is a sign of intelligence, ambition, dedication, commitment and a masculine mindset.

Any woman who says she doesn't care about it, is either lying, very very young or has few options with men and is trying to convince herself it doesn't matter. I am 22 and the guys I am looking to date are primarily I'd be open to guys that are , but I will be far more skeptical - in fact, I rarely go on dinner dates with guys in this age range. I've always been fairly attracted to older men, so if I meet a decent and good divorced man who's 45, I would be happy to go on a dinner date.

When I turn 25, I would probably expand the age gap a little. At 22, even though I feel old for my age, I will fear a 45 year old man wants e primarily for my beauty. J - I think you need to realize that although men and women often look for similar values to settle down, they are biologically different and experience different attraction cues.

For men, those are related to beauty and for women, the are related to power. Women possess more of these attraction cues in their 20s, men have more of them after 30 and further down the line. You might be dismissing something men yourself, but the reality is that most women don't. And this blog, like most blogs giving women dating advice, has to base itself on reality, not wishful thinking or exceptions to the rule.

At least if women are to gain something from it. Sometimes men insist on paying for the dates and my persistent refusal would seem rude. I always offer to pay and back off when rejected. I am most comfortable with taking turns, i. However, older men seem to have this big-brother mentality, that they ought to treat you like a younger sister and take care of you and pay for everything.

I dated several guys like that, the bigger the age gap, the less likely he would let me pay. I wasn't digging for gold, I just enjoy the conversation a lot more than with guys my own age or younger.

Anon feb 18, 5: I've noticed this with older men too, and it can be really weird when he treats you like a little sister but you know he wants to boink you at the same time. I have to admit to being old-fashioned.

I do prefer for the man to pay on the first date any more isn't necessary unless it's his thing. I was taught that that is how a gentleman acts and I'm put off by any man who doesn't do that. So yeah, call me old-fashioned. If a man I date has a different opinion to me then it's obviously a clash of values. I did have a rich boyfriend and was a bit ticked off that he didn't pay for me so much. Wait, let me explain. It's not because I wanted a chunk of his wallet. It's because he'd deliberately avoid making romantic gestures that would incur a cost because he had some complex about all women being golddiggers.

Basically, he was hedging his bets. I actually spent more money on him in the relationship despite me being a bit of a poor sod who was too hopelessly besotted.

I don't like keeping score but clearly that arrangement didn't work. I also like the idea of an older guy having dated a wider variety of women and so the chances of him knowing what's important to him in a relationship are higher, " just wanted to add that a man who "dated a wider variety of women" is NOT necessarily more likely to know "what's important to him in a relationship.

Whereas the man who "just knows" that a woman is the one for him without having had to date "a variety of women," just seems like a man who would be more willing to commit and remain faithful.

There's also a major advantage of him having less baggage, and the woman he's married to not having to worry about being compared to all the other women he's been previously with. The stats linked earlier clearly show that most marriages have an age gap of years. Even years ago the average age difference wasn't more than that. Im a 23 year old and while I do find older men attractive its not something I would seek right now, personally.

Id much rather marry a guy years older and look forward to him becoming a silver fox. There is a world of difference between a 20 and 30 year old, but the difference between, say, a 35 and 45 year old are less pronounced. I am somewhat of an "old soul". When one comes up to me I automatically filter them out as being mainly interested in sex or arm candy.

Even though most guys years older than me will still be mostly interested in sex I at least know that there is a higher likelihood of them being attracted to me on a personal level, outside of physical attraction.

If the large age gap works for you thats great and I wish you the best of luck. However, given the statistical evidence it isnt common nor is it something most women are into, unless the man in question is exceptional and has an overabundance of a specific characteristic she is attracted to ie power, fame, money, wisdom, dentures: Why not have more confidence that your personality might be appealing to a wider range of men?

It sounds like feminist propaganda trying to convince men and women that they can't have enough in common with each other if there's a larger age gap. How do they know?

Maybe the odds are that they won't have as much in common but if both find each other attractive and like each other's personality then go for it.

Our personalities are a culmination of our biology, upbringing, and cultural references; the latter two being influence by the generation we grew up with. Chances are a man who is closer to my age will be more compatible with me in that regard.

Thats just a fact. Thats not to say there are no 35 yr olds that would be compatible but generally speaking a 27 yr old would be a better fit. This is not the result feminist bougie women, its a preference women have for men who are slightly older than themselves, exceptions notwithstanding. I certainly don't dispute the average age diff.

I'm not saying young women should get with older men, just that if that younger woman and older man want to and are compatible then more power to them. Human are living longer and longer while taking less care of themselves. I have no desire to be stuck playing nurse to my husband while I'm still wanting to travel Europe in my retirement.

That is a large reason why I cap my upper age limit to about 7 years. Not only that, marriage is more than just about looks and money. It is also finding someone who is my best friend. If you have a generation gap, that is less likely to be the case.

Not to mention the "life experience" of someone that much older than me will probably have. I want someone to experience life with me, not watch as I experience it. And for those seeking much younger mates because they are more attractive?

A word of caution if you will - someone who is in their mid to early twenties is still growing and learning about themselves.

Who they are now, is not who they will be 10 years from now. Yes, everyone changes through time, but not nearly as much as in our youth. Personally, if I was a man, I'd take a hot 30 year old over a hot 20 year old.

Just by virtue of being young, the 20 year old looks hot. The 30 year old had to work at it. That ups her chances of not "letting herself go" once she has a ring on her finger.

To each her own. If you can find that man your same age that wants to marry and so forth then more power to you. But some women can't and so them it's better to marry an older man and then be single for the last 10 or 15 years of her life than alone her whole life. Let's assume she lives to 81 http: That means they can have 41 years together and then she will have 15 years alone after he dies.

So, that is a real likelihood but you have to compare it to her options. If she loved him more than the other men she could have had then I'd say 41 years together is pretty awesome. As to not being able to be friends or best friends with a man that's 10 years older I just flat-out disagree.

Maybe the odds are smaller but it can still happen. Once the woman is 35, yes, but 30 is still young enough that she'll probably only be very slightly below her peak beauty.

For the single white woman in the US, her life expectancy is 81 per the link I provided. For black females, it's But let's use Some, granted, slowly, but once you get to that age, looks quickly stop being about "lucky genes" and start becoming about how much effort your are willing to put into it.

You need to eat right, you need to exercise, you need to not chop off your hair just because you are now a mom and it is "easier", you need to continue to dress nice even if you are so tired you just want to put on sweats, you need to take time to do your beauty regiment even if you need to put food on the table and run that errand! American women are notorious for letting themselves go after they get married.

If you want to remain "hot" you have to work for it and want it , and yes, that means starting as early as your mid-twenties. I wish someone had told me that! Maybe I wouldn't be single today. I started to really care about my looks at 28, and sadly, I think it is too little too late. I think I did too much damage to my body during that time that no amount of anything will turn me pretty.

True story, my hair dresser is Korean and said to me, "When you finally get a boyfriend, come back here and I'll put highlights in your hair. The lady who did my hair was American and I asked her about highlights. She said, "Yeah, you should get them, it will help you get a boyfriend. And, although I don't disagree with what you are saying about age, I'm not talking about living 10 to 15 years alone because your husband passed on.

I'm talking about when they are still alive but are so bad they can't take a shower, dress themselves, or even go to the restroom without help. I see it with my own parent's who are falling apart in their mid's. I see it with my 80 year old grandma who has to be taken care of like an infant. Maybe it is more an issue of health and how important it is for you to try to live healthy than age, but I rather be single and be able to live for myself than married to someone I have to live for before they can't do it themselves.

If you have never cared for an elderly person, it's hard to understand. So, if you don't want to take care of a man who is old then I guess you'd have to marry a man about 10 years younger than you! If he's 10 years younger then you'll die 5 years before him and he'll have to take care of you!

All this just seems like too much thinking. Find someone you're mutually in love with and be happy as long as you can and take care of each other when that time comes. J, you have good points. I never thought of that Why do you say it's too late for you in the looks department?

Not speaking about J but too much tanning, drinking or drugs or other miscare can age a woman and there is little to do once the ageing has set in. I'm going to stop drinking. After drinking at university, I can tell it's aged me even if only a little bit. The tanning is the worst though. Luckily I don't really tan because I live in Scotland but I still go out with sunblock every day without fail in order to block the UVA rays.

I read somewhere that this is far more effective than buying anti-aging creams later on. I agree with you! This is not bragging, just my 2cents, but as a "hot" 26 y. The thing is, because I have the choice, if I want to get married now i'll look for the guys who are young and fresh. That's an opinion I share with the majority of my girl friends. And even if older guys appear to be be more mature and stable, they sometimes have others issues that makes them not so desirable bitterness, not so fun Assuming for argument's sake that you are hot then that makes you a small minority of women and yes, you can have your pick of many men though not all.

What advice would you give the average or ugly girl, though? I'm curious, are all your friends as hot or hotter than you? If so, then your advice isn't harmful really since you have so many men to choose from. But what about those who don't have so many.

Don't you think that they would do well to expand their age range to up the number of good guys to choose from? That likely would mean they the average and ugly girls should consider older as well, if they are 26 then a woman should consider a man into his mid 30's but possibly even a year or two younger if he has his act together, though it's likely that the slightly older guy will have his career more in place and be looking to marry.

Even hot girls should probably be willing to think upwards in age. Basically, if keeping a narrow age range works for you and you can easily find a great guy to marry or date then continue. But a lot of women complain that they can't find a good guy, so, expand your age range a bit and see what you find. In the end you don't have to go for the older guy but it probably makes sense to at least consider the possibility. I am not the poster above but I can answer that.

I am 25 graduate student and fairly attractive. I think the age range is a bit narrow, personally for me. But I don't think there is such a thing as 'ugly girl', though some have better features and genetics than others. Before throwing in the towel to date whomever you can get. You must work on yourself first.

At least try to get around your age if you have time In your 30s, I agree with your mentality, even though you should never let yourself go. Even in marriage, never let yourself go. So maybe you don't like the word 'ugly' but will you at least agree that there are women who men find to be physically attractive, average and unattractive?

I think that the important people to ask though is men. Do they believe there are unattractive or ugly women? Obviously, the answer is yes. But such women can find bf's or husbands if they will work on themselves and lower their expectations to more realistic levels. I had one friend that was on the unattractive side of things who was wanting guys that were on the attractive side in all three areas of career, looks and personality. She was being totally unrealistic. Also, I think your age range of men is reasonable, especially if you're not finding it too hard to find good guys to date.

The reason I had such a response to the word 'ugly' is because most woman are complacent to throw in the towel. Unfortunately, ugly in today's day and age refers to body over features, due to the obesity crisis in America. I have seen plenty of average looking woman, at best, get married over their overweight attractive friends simply because of a little effort. With all the resources out there to make anyone attractive, I have run across very few women that are beyond repair. I work on myself all the time.

And I think it is important for less attractive woman to realize this. No one grows up and maintains 'model status' with little effort. Not that I am 'model status', just presenting an extreme. Granted I have my own issues to deal with, even with enough guys to date. Building your career as a women foremost has its repercussions. I could not hold a relationship with men my age from ages 18 to Men my age would consider seriously dating me until it got difficult with my moving around.

It was easier to date good-looking, easy girls that followed them, idolized their wit, and were present for sex without LDR. It hurt to break up like that, especially when these men would break all contact yet follow you on social networking for whatever reason, impeding moving on. I agree that if a lot of the young overweight women would lose some weight that their underlying features are anywhere from average to attractive and certainly better than when being hid by 10, 20, 50 or more lbs of extra weight.

And, no, women, please don't go to unhealthy extremes in trying to lose weight. Men don't prefer anorexic looking girls over more normal-but-not-fat looking girls. However, they might prefer the really skinny girl over the fat girl.

Hope you're in a more stable situation now so you can have a good relationship and even marriage with the right guy. It sounds like you might be. Girls generally take being "hit on" as validation. Us guys hit on a lot of girls. The gap between girls that I'll hit on vs girls that I'll commit to is massive.

If that makes you feel better about yourself, you're like the guy that jumps at and does tricks for any sort of female attention. Be better than that. I'm overweight myself and have been for a while although I recently lost 20lbs. I still have another 20lbs to lose to look my best. After I read something in this blog about waiting to see which men are attracted to me, I decided that it was worth investing the hard work to put myself in a better position.

Then there is the obvious translation into feeling great about yourself. It makes me slightly queasy sometimes when a man is hitting on me because I can't work out how real it is. I dislike it if a man calls me "beautiful" or "gorgeous" but I still accept the compliment graciously. I have to say that I completely agree with you about not jumping at any guy who gives you attention.

That is not something I do in spite of how I occasionally feel otherwise. And I believe that some men can sense if you're the type of woman who would jump at any attention, and use that to their advantage. I think your comment was very apt. Part of why some women say a lot of stuff like that is because of oneupmanship over who is the hottest. I know it sounds silly but it happens. Sometimes other women have tried to jeopardize my chances with certain men by telling me "oh he's not really into you.

He's only being friendly". And on occasion I've had some women tell me I'm not as hot as them because they've slept with more men than me. If I'm not interested in shagging someone for the sake of it, some tell me I'm frigid. This stuff hasn't stopped even though I'm almost in my mid-twenties.

I still don't understand why some women choose to run each other down. We are all beautiful in our own way. Lucy, some men will exaggerate their compliments to try and get in a woman's pants. So, watch what men do, not what they say. However, excessive compliments seems more like a chump move and so those guys probably aren't getting laid a lot unless they have a lot of charm and other attractive stuff going for them.

As to number of sex partners having anything to do with the female's attractiveness, no. Men looking for casual are willing to sleep down in "quality" so a woman can basically rack up as high a number as she wants. It seems like projection of those women's thoughts about how only really attractive or charismatic or famous men can sleep with 's of beautiful women.

And N is an incomplete piece of data, you need to know how hot the women were. What does tell you about how attractive a woman is overall not just looks is who wants to have a relationship with her. And regarding her looks, get a representative sample of men with no ulterior motives to rate the looks and then you'll know. Men can tell pretty quickly if a woman is a 5 or a 7 or a 9 in looks to him. Thanks for your response, HanSolo.

Just to clarify that I'm definitely aware of that but I think it's a lot less bother to say 'thank you' than to start outwardly scrutinising a comment. I generally don't like compliments like that because they feel very insincere and I don't want to be put on a pedestal or objecified. Most of the guys who hit on me seem to be like that. It's actually quite hard to find a normal healthy guy with no baggage let alone someone I have a connection with and who is on a level with me I mean in terms of how they talk to me and not about looks or anything like that.

And I can't answer that for myself yet as I'm in a situation where I'm meeting hardly any men. So there you go. I'd rather focus on my overall quality as a person than get tied down worrying about what I look like. Lucy I am about to totally launch into guy trying to solve your problem mode!!!! Not sure where you are but have you tried online dating? On POF, there are x as many men as women you can actually search and see how many are returned in the area you're looking at and so even though there will be a lot of incompatible men there are likely to be a few that would be great guys.

Guys don't get written often either so you could try writing a few that seem like good yet realistic matches. As in other situations, don't go for someone way out of your league or they'll likely just want casual sex if anything. And what's the worst that could happen? Likely they just don't respond and look on the bright side!

I think focusing on your overall quality as a person is good Yes, men and women can get too superficial about looks sometimes but there is also a good reason that men and to a lesser degree, women care about looks and height and teeth and such. Fertility, healthiness, and strength were things that allowed our ancestors to survive and reproduce and we have inherited being attracted to many of those things.

Anyway, I assume that you might be meaning that you don't just focus solely on your looks and if so then I think that's great. However, I would highly recommend giving some attention to your looks unless they're already maximized since even raising your looks by 0. CastleFebruary 18, at 4: Where is the love? This seems like an instruction booklet to breeding. I would rather be single than settle for someone who wasn't my best friend and lover. I value friendship more now than I did in my 20's.

Do you guys consider love at all? Does your attractiveness for a woman increase the more you like her personality? It works that way for me. You can be a stud but if you're dumb, take a hike. Does being a '10' trump intelligence every time? I wonder because I hear a lot of guys say, bitches be crazy! Will you put up with the crazy as long as she's hot? Kendra, welcome to the difference in male and female attraction triggers. Looks are more important to men than to women.

But women are attracted to charismatic, successful, and famous men. It is what it is and it's best to accept reality and make the best of our lot in life instead of wanting to change everything around us--a nearly impossible task.

I'm in my late 20's and consider myself to be mature, however, because I've often been told that I look younger than my age, when I have been approached by older men, who I know are attracted to me and like the fact that I'm younger than them I don't always feel like I'm taken as seriously or shown as much respect by them, in spite of the fact that I'm intelligent and mature. Although I would prefer a man who is only years older than myself, I would be open to dating someone years older.

However, I do have some questions. The first being, do older men really view women years younger than them as equal partners worthy of their respect, or just silly young bimbos? I frequently hear about mens' preference for younger women, but even if they manage to get one, they'll sometimes complain about her lack of maturity and treat her like she doesn't know anything, even that's not true.

Another question I have is, are some older men who pursue women years younger just looking to re-live some of their youth? Lastly, how do you filter between the men who are still single in mid's because they haven't found the right woman, as opposed to those who might just be immature, players, or potential confirmed bachelors? I view younger women as potentially equal partners. But that depends on the content of their character.

If they are intelligent, mature, kind and intellectually curious then I will grant them the respect they are due. So, I think a lot of guys do want to respect the woman they're with and if you give them a chance to get to know you they will find that you are intelligent and mature.

You just have to filter out the ones that aren't looking for that. Some men may be looking to relive their youth a bit but as long as they treat you well and are looking for long-term assuming you want that then what's wrong with them feeling pleased with being with a younger looking woman such as yourself.

There could be issues later on if he is an extreme case but if he's treating you great and wants to commit then I wouldn't worry about it too much.

How do you filter? As Andrew said above you can bring up related topics after a date or three such as what he thinks about his nephews or what he thinks about what's wrong or right with relationships these days. I wouldn't come right out at the start and say, "Are you looking to get married in 1 year and be faithful forever and have kids? And finally, look at how he treats you.

If he's being really aloof and just into it for the sex then you have your answer. If the conversations are great and he's respectful and that can be in addition to great sex too and introduces you to his friends and family eventually and wants to do lots of stuff with you and make you his gf then you likely know he's looking for long-term commitment.

I don't think it's that hard. Just use some common sense and get a couple trusted guy friends that aren't secretly in love with you so that they sabotage you with their advice or a brother that you can get the male perspective from on the guy's actions.

I like my half brothers best friend, he's got a personality type that I like and seem to just click with, maybe I'm imagining it I don't know, I really only meet a guy I feel that kind of drawn to once every few years though so I feel its worth getting a second opinion. He's also friendly with my other brother, we all socialise together sometimes but we have our own friends too. Few obstacles though, namely that he has a girlfriend, and he's also nearly a year younger I normally only ever like guys a good few years older.

And we drunkenly slept together a little while ago after I went on a night out with my half brother and his friends, they fell asleep and he sat up chatting and having a drink, the rest is kind of a blur. I'm aware potentially moving in on someone else's boyfriend is not reeally a nice thing to do, but you know we're both young, boyfriends and girlfriends do come and go.

Anyway after that happened I just thought well I've fucked it now anyway so just forget about it, we were in touch for a little bit afterward but then the other brother found out and kicked off, I went back to the city I study in, and I've not had much opportunity to spend time with him since, but when I have as I said I just thought I'd destroyed any potential for anything anyway so I've just been generally friendly but not gone out of my way the odd time I have seen him.

I've spent a bit of time with my half brother recently and he brought it up in context of something else I can't remember what now so I had the opportunity to quiz him a little bit, he seems to think that his mate likes me, he said his mate has said I'm a laugh, that if he split up with his girlfriend he'd want to be with me, a few things to that effect.

My brother's response is always shut up you've got no chance,but they're quite banter-y lads anyway. I was also expecting about ten years of "That's not what your sister said! I got the impression my half brother wouldn't have minded if me and him got together properly , but I'm wondering if he might be filtering what his friend has said through his own opinion i. He also seems to think the relationship is on the rocks, but I know he doesn't personally find the girlfriend attractive so obviously he's not going to see what his friend sees in her.

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