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I think this is a pretty reasonable critique. I have no interest in comparing which is most important. They are both important. However, I think that it is useful to discuss them separately in many cases, because the dynamics are different. To pick one example: Do you seriously think that most men, if they see someone who needs help, are actively looking for an opportunity to turn that into a rape if that person happens to be female?

I think men should be more involved in such discussions, because they are both victims and abusers. That may be a valid point, but the middle of discussion with a rape survivor exploring her experience.

Did the rape she survived consist of a rape that occurred during a home invasion robbery. Did someone break through her door and hold a knife to her throat?

Or was she wandering around half drunk and sexily dressed looking for a dicking, and after sobering up decided that the dicking that she got was distressing and not at all what she was looking for and that she had never consented to that sort of rotten treatment? But even laying aside that this is not a reaction made to any other risk factor in society whatsoever and that it is considered utterly unacceptable to use distorted risk factors in other unselected contexts like race, it is NOT the case that any given man that Kate Harding encounters in the street is equally likely to be the one that assaults her.

We already know that rapists have a habit of being repeat offenders. The simple truth is this: Not all men are potential rapists. The vast, overwhelming majority of men and women go through their lives without sexually assaulting anyone. A significant minority commit minor sexual assaults that would likely have been considered meaningless social interaction when they were being educated.

A minority of that minority will then go on to assault people they know and a minority of that minority will sexually assault strangers. The crime victimization survey shows that the victimization rate among women living with their husband is indistinguishable from zero and that it is low among daughters of married couples. And my personal observation doubtless statistically too small a sample is that rapes by the stepfather or boyfriend are not exactly rapes either any more than rapes while cruising for a dicking are exactly rapes.

The mother knows, and gives her daughter to the boyfriend to sweeten the deal, which while potentially unpleasant for the daughter is not the same thing as a man with knife breaking through the window. The more you do the latter, the harder you make it for people to do the former.

You realize that, right? Or was she wandering around half drunk and sexily dressed looking for a dicking, and after sobering up decided that the dicking that she got was distressing. That married women living with their husbands are very seldom raped crime victimization survey suggests that a great many rape victims, probably the great majority, really were looking for it.

The exaggeration suggests that exaggeration is required, which suggests that the underlying event was less than traumatic. Non stranger rapes are necessarily ambiguous. The first few times I have sex with a woman I usually pick her up and toss her onto the bed, sometimes shove her face into the pillows or lightly smack her backside. Consent is usually non verbal and pre-rational. If we are going to assume the person facing jail time is innocent until proven guilty, we have to assume the accuser is guilty until proven innocent, which we are forbidden to assume.

I find this a very oversimplistic point of view to take. In any broad and uninspiring conversation about how bad it all is, be my guest: However, as soon as we decide that we actually want to do something about genital mutilation, we probably want to start thinking of how to combat it. Or both, to the same extent or different extents. Two admittedly superficially similar problems, coming from different sources, being implemented for different reasons, with different effects.

Other people do distinguish in principle between types, and that is my problem. However, as soon as we decide that we actually want to do something about genital mutilation…. See, I would agree with the generally utilitarian slant of your post in almost every single detail, because I passionately oppose genital mutilation and absolutely anything that reduces the incidence of that is like fecking ambrosia to me. Virtually no discussion of female genital mutilation EVER centers on what to do about the problem.

The two good ones? If a discussion about genital mutilation cannot contain any mention at all of the millions of boys mutilated every year in the US, then it is not actually about infant genital mutilation at all. When people act in support of that perspective, I start to think of them and as the US as a faraway barbaric country filled with willing mutilating freaks, just as you lot think of the various Muslim countries that perform FGM.

Genital mutilation is fundamentally wrong and focusing on one is unacceptable. I will not relinquish that position. Although there is this hilarious medieval text, Jewish penis is better than Christian penis , which actually manages to get the typical effect of circumcision on ability to delay orgasm completely backwards. It came into vogue in very specific circumstances. In both cases it does not control sexuality now, but it came into existence for sexuality-control reasons.

Well, your last paragraph applies to your interjector, too: But the man who rudely inserted himself into your discussion probably was circumcised without consent as a child.

The defence [against extension] consists in an accurate statement of the point or essential question at issue. On a more general point… You seem to bring up social justice stuff a lot. Not to me to argue with that, but I certainly get the subjective impression that your personal experiences might have coloured your focus.

Unlikely to be more diseased than other fields, but I think it has one of the higher diseasedness: And I spend a lot of time arguing against that too. To a significant extent, the insane rancor of social justice types can be understood if one recognizes that anti-intellectual movements such as the Patriarchy which they so hate even exist. I suspect that the more insane intellectual movements gain currency, the more that feeds into anti-intellectualism.

Immediate supervisor who is a woman is doing three separate jobs associated with the work carried out by our organisation at the moment. This means that, when she finishes her normal work day in the office, she spends additional hours every evening doing the extra work for one of the other jobs.

She spent all Saturday and Sunday this week in the office catching up on that work. Women are more interested in their family life? Well, many of the women are married and have kids, yet are doing the work outside and the majority of the work inside the home as well.

Again, many of the women have twenty and even thirty years racked up working for this place. If you want someone aware of and capable of climbing hierarchies, chances are they will be in the deep end of the Test pool. Height is obvious albeit a little silly; you look up to tall people, thus they tend to be the ones we look up to. To steelman our instinctual preference, height is highly polygenic so higher-end-of-normal height implies relatively low genetic load.

I remember you once listed something like all of the times the social justice movement came up on your internet in one day, and you seemed to think it was somewhat typical. Btw, I do enjoy the posts criticising it still. Critiquing how specific internet commenters make mistakes is a very generalisable skill. Oh, it definitely depends where you hang out. See here and here for example. Oh, well that makes it all OK then. Nothing to worry about. I agree with you in that sense, but that has nothing to do with whether reality has an objective existence.

People get rational extremely fast when they can see it costs them cash. Oh come on, even economists regard fiat currency as a social fiction used to mediate exchange. Even metal currency has only reality insofar as people agree to use it as a medium of exchange per Searle. With no objective reality I guess we will both just have to accept that we have different subjective experiences and move on, neh.

It may be a social fiction but when the cops kick your door down, shit will get real all of a sudden. Sounds like sin in new clothing to me. Though it can be, and privilege is not permanent. From doing a bit of reading about this and talking to people I think that often the most dangerous sexual predators in communities are high status men, who are often attractive and have lots of friends.

This is part of what the fedora-neckbeard thing is about. Fedoras and neckbeards were never high-status within any enclave. Not within atheism, not within certain imageboard communities, pretty much nowhere. The broader society attacking fedora-neckbeard people as low status was directly imported from enclaves that those fedora-neckbeard people are part of, enclaves that attacked them as low status.

Well, maybe not high status. You are simply wrong as a matter of fact; this is a known bias you may wish to correct for in the future. Nornagest, you are also wrong. Feminist co-option gave it a signal boost, but they were co-opting a previously existing stereotype. Your link seems to show that it was popular enough to start showing up in websearches as of seven years ago; this does not seem to support your claim that it is only a few years old.

Five minutes of Google turn up no references older than , and that was referring to the facial hair rather than the attendant stereotype. The Google Trends data up there looks like a strong argument for Co-opting words is a common tactic for pushing an agenda or manipulating a cause. But it helps when they start with negative connotations in the first place.

The opportunity cost of social justicey norms supplanting older defection-punishing norms is in some cases significant. Informal social coordination using a SJ moral vocabulary is good at solving some problems, but is inefficient at others — and punishing charismatic defectors is not one of them.

Of course, the question then becomes whether the benefits of getting rid of old, unequal norms are greater than these costs. Could you be more specific or provide more concrete examples here? This sounds like a really interesting point. I generally dislike moving meta level discussion to object level, because the debate immediately shifts to quibbling over the object level example.

When I have time to write carefully and with foresight, I can usually come up with examples safely in the past so that we can have some sane discourse. Since we started talking about sex, we might as well continue. Contrast that to today. We no longer think premarital sex bad; in fact insisting on it seems weird. Okay, so how does this new culture deal with seduction? Well, you can go on PUA sites and see that lots of men believe that it would be awesome and personally beneficial to seduce lots of women with relatively low commitment.

So we ratify their use of their next best option: So, instead of having a norm that fairly cleanly targets seducers and seductresses who prey on the opposite sex, we now have this massive informal monkey-political mess. There were rakes back then the same as we had PUAs now. The point was that the culture had a much more effective way of containing the damage that rakes did, and that that was a side effect of making courtship a more free-form, informal affair governed mostly by monkey politics.

But there were some pretty big opportunity costs, of which this is one. So I like that you wrote this but it seems to miss a rather big part of why people wanted the norms to change in the first place: If more people having more sex is a good, the changes from then to now have enabled a lot of good, especially for women.

Yes there was no sanctioned sex before marriage back then — however, the age of marriage was much lower than today.

Elizabeth was 20 in the novel, and England was itself kind of a weird outlier in having late marriage. Outside Hajnal Europe her age would have been even lower at marriage. Contrast with this fun Wellesley survey breaking down virginity at age by major.

Most sex almost certainly still takes place within marriage. How has marital sex been doing? Uncertain about the sign and magnitude of delta total lifetime sex.

I am reminded of this. Though I have to admit, reading Tertullian talking about the heretic Marcion is a lot like reading the snark on a lot of Jezebel articles. This means that the kernel of the religion is in some sense still operative; at minimum you must say that it constrains the debates somewhat, restricting it from being a total free-for-all random walk.

The logic of social justice — the deep logic, not the surface rationalizations, has its own ideas about the kinds of group-coordination and status dynamics that it wants to reinforce. You are out of line. I disagree with shifting commenting norms in that direction. I have, however, clarified the quip to emphasize the historical side, to make it extra-hard to interpret it in an offensive way. You are in line. Please fill your comments with Chinese history analogies.

I played Koihime Musou which is basically the same as reading romance of the three kingdoms, right? Yes, a truly wonderful text. We are however intruding in the conversation in the first sense of the word. The social justice movement are attempting to shame us into silence, as evidenced by Apophemi and Arthur Chu.

Obviously, any group of people whose fundamental values are summed up by the Litany of Tarski is going to find that offensive. Alexander who take inspiration from them have an accurate view of gender politics or power relations — stepping outside the box is an eternal cringe. And yet, they have so many problems.

The lowest depth is the postcolonialist queer who imagines their knowledge of themself to be perfect correct and their knowledge of Miss Traditionalist Straight to also be perfect so, so wrong, though they often know things that she does not. The otherness with which the likes of the great Ozy Frantz refer to us sons of heteronormativity is refreshing. Ozy still blogs, but in a personal way, having largely fled from feminist discourse. This is very sad news indeed. In one sense, I absolutely agree that you are correct about the use of these as weapons.

I will attempt to explain why. The example that brought the concept to clarity in my personal experiences was seeing the difference between my wife going into a tabletop hobby store, and me going in with her at the same time.

So whereas the case of racism does seem like a clear case of deliberate and convenient reclassification, so does privilege, but in a very different way. And I feel like consigning it to suspicion solely because of the rampant abuse of it is, if anything, giving those abusers of language exactly the weapon they want. If you go to a busy playground alone, you are likely to experience hassles as well. Is this due to the advantages society confers upon mothers?

Speaking as the father of a young girl, I can say this: I would never presume to dismiss your experiences, and besides which, bickering about the frequency of such experiences is besides the point. Think of them in terms of economic advantages. I might have some. You might have some. They remain independent factors, except in so far as I might have more of them than you, or vice versa. My having Advantage A has no bearing on the reality of your Advantage B, and there is also an onus to be careful when comparing advantages that they are actually equivalent.

You probably know the form: But by drawing that equivalence, in suggesting an imagined injustice or hypocrisy on the part of Person A, the fight is now about that, and Person B, if successful, gets to pretend X never happened. Very little, I assume, but I also assume the social challenges are not of their immediate concern. It might have been being ignored.

So, at least on the west coast of the United States, it seems sufficiently culturally entrenched as to be a readily available weapon. They then declare that this proves no-one else can have any. Assuming your definition, as you point out, this is utter gibberish.

But that concept does not seem very … useful … to be discussing. It seems kind of underhanded, even. And your definition is the motte. Do we take genetic differences and other differences between people into account when considering outcomes? Not quantifiable, therefore useless. Quantifying is nice, but can only be done within a preexisting framework of general reason. Perfect quantification is impossible in any field, and estimates in sociology will be worse than in other fields, but truth can still be approached through broad strokes.

Quality of life scores would be the most obvious way to quantify it. These privileges occur in many different domains, and those who are advantaged in one domain may find themselves disadvantaged in another. Most specific forms of privilege have been studied and quantified, often repeatedly and in various contexts.

Some of those statistics are subject to disagreement, as is any area of study. Who said that the point was to decide which individuals are advantaged simpliciter or the most advantaged? So we can easily identify and to some extent quantify the disadvantage of black job-seekers, where we find that fake CVs sent out with stereotypical black-sounding name receive fewer responses than identical CVs with white names, or if we find that expert evaluators evaluate the same piece of music much more negatively if they are told that it is played by a female musician than a man and so on.

Also, as you suggest, in religious subcultures. It obscures a useful comparison with a useless trusim. In the actual case, where the entire discussion is about how the social justice movement engages in it and what that implies about the social justice movement, I instead felt compelled to stress that while yes intensity varies which it does , actually this is pretty universal and that matters which it is and does. SJ activists are one group, I assume. To be fair, the people who use the teal-blue-circle definition of racism do have other words they use to describe what other folks use the red-circle definition for namely, bigotry and prejudice.

What annoys me is that when an outsider uses the red-circle definition, the conversation becomes all about the fact that they defined racism incorrectly. By the tone of your post I suspect you already knew this, but I figure it bears stating outright. So no white men criticizing Asians for being racist against black people or conservative Muslims cultures for being misogynistic. It is, indeed, always about the gradient, rather than the boundary. Find examples of feminists calling out women for anti-male bigotry, or social justice groups pointing out blacks can be bigoted against whites.

Basically, racisms and sexism and other isms are defined by social status and hierarchy such as to make upwards directed oppression impossible, as the SJ-ers tell it.

And other uses are confusing these terms with bigotry that is non-directional. Very similar to the consensus on trans-exclusionary radical feminism. Part of the reason for that is that it lies outside of their interests. Once prejudice reaches a point where it is or causes a social ill, social justice theory will generally start including it as part of an -ism.

As for touching nerves, this seems a corollary of the fact that historically-oppressed-groups jealously guard their status. They have huge negative connotations though they can be used with care to denote things.

This makes a lot of sense from a social-survival perspective. If you are high status, taking the hit from being called racist or the like is something you can usually afford. The child was then asked questions inquiring as to which one is the doll they would play with, which one is the nice doll, which one looks bad, which one has the nicer color, etc. The experiment showed a clear preference for the white doll among all children in the study.

These findings exposed internalized racism in African-American children, self-hatred that was more acute among children attending segregated schools. The doll experiments are bunk.

The white dolls were nice, store-bought toys, and the black ones were handmade. That would present its own problems if white and black babies tend to look different. If you took a picture of a white guy and photoshopped it to make him look black, or vice versa, it would probably look weird, since different population groups have different facial structures. This was the first thing that jumped out at me while reading this post, and it seems very important, because it cleaves right to the core of vulgar sjw-ism.

I agree with that statement, though I cannot say whether I agree with what you actually mean. This is a substantial part of what I mean by the claim that only SJ people understand power relations. This is too interesting a lead to let sit; I vote for an expanded presentation of the argument, either here or in a link. The way to deal with predictable skewing is to take your impartiality up a meta-level, not give up on the idea.

How does fairness have anything to do with race at all? That sounds like the people who assume that straight white men must be wicked to each other. Is it just anarchy? The first is that members of all races generally prefer to associate with other members of their own race. This is pretty well studied; even infants prefer members of their own race and have difficulty differentiating between individuals of other races.

Less well established but still convincing is the evidence that greater racial diversity reduces trust and increases stress within a social group. The second is that members of all races generally have poor opinions of american blacks in europe replace with gypsies. This is less well studied, or at least studied more poorly, but still very likely to be true.

On some psychological effects, blacks show pro-black bias; on others they show pro-white bias or are neutral. For examples of the former, blacks more likely to use self-serving attributions to explains behaviors of black vs.

It is true that implicit association tests and some other experiments find blacks showing no or inconsistent bias. One common explanation for this that I find reasonable is that blacks have a pro-white bias instilled by society versus a pro-black bias instilled by the in-group effect, which usually cancel out. This could be because you hate black people. Or it could be because black people are associated with lots of negative-valence stuff — poverty, racism, prison, et cetera — in your mind, which naturally predisposes you to sad thoughts.

But this is something black people should think as often or more often than white people do. I suspect the same combination of social effect and in-group effect is true of gender, but I have a hard time finding it from the research. What we actually get is the so-called Women Are Wonderful Effect real scientific name!

Accidentally dishonest if at all. Comparing those two effects is a reasonable observation, but comparing the overall oppressions does not follow and is a predictably inflammatory statement easily predictable to me, anyway. It merely says something about the way society views one gender versus the other in specific circumstances.

They are not complete or even semi-complete theories of oppression. Old people have too slow of reaction times to test in a mathematically reliable way at all, and young people can often fake iats to get whatever outcomes they want. In most cases after I finished the test I could guess its result to within one or two points on the seven-point scale.

The explicit claims seem to be the motte and the implicit ones the bailey. As it is with IQ tests too. Harald, what are the unsupported implicit claims about IQ tests? Have you actually tried looking to see if they have been tested? The same holds for unconscious sexism and e. I think you mean the sun is a miasma of incandescent plasma.

The only even slightly social justice related thing on my facebook feed for the last week is this article about prison conditions. On the one had, white male privilege is the privilege to not have to worry about this stuff. On the other hand, I have basically the same facebook group as my housemate — what makes her and I similar and you different is not race or gender but social group and possibly facebook-usage habits.

I agree that you have it worse than me, not just because of random variation but because of structural factors set in motion long ago. It matters to me on a deep and fundamental level that, eg, women are actively discouraged from going into technology, etc. Yeah, there are good parts and bad parts. I support equality, and oppose domestic violence and genital mutilation. Many people with similar values are already there.

Should I reinvent the wheel? So, could we the wide public, not readers of this blog somehow avoid the package-deal fallacy, keep the good parts and throw away the bad parts? Because the good parts are worth preserving, but on the internet the bad parts seem to thrive better. You see someone like Turing and all his achievements, and you wonder if he could have reached even greater heights had he not been persecuted for his sexuality.

Similar for women in tech: I see someone like Marissa Mayer and all she has achieved as spokeswoman for Google and CEO of Yahoo, and I wonder what she could have achieved if she faced the same obstacles that Larry Page, Sergey Brin, or Paul Graham faced, rather than a comparatively greater set of obstacles because of sexism in tech. Because during my time as a computer science TA at a top-ten university, precisely 0 of the men in the top decile of students switched majors, and over half of the top decile women did.

I see a lot of women affirmative actioned into technology who really should not be there. Notoriously, first year computer science is full of women who are just not smart enough, and leave over the course of the year because they just cannot do the work. Any activity that selects for smart people is going to under represent women, because not that many women will be able to do it.

The only way to fix the problem is to do what Google and our leading universities have wound up doing, and stop selecting for smarts. It would be interesting to see whether female CompSci undergrads really do have a different major-change rate than their male peers.

I do love the irony that I ended up in GIS, which involves some more compsci concepts and programming languages. Many of the best people at geospatial programming I know are women, including several of my professors. You bring up first-year college students, but I feel this is an invalid example because a lot of students change their majors to begin with! How are we going to find the women who are good at computer science? By putting a lot of them through first-year computer science and seeing which ones have the knack and the passion.

Are Gawker and its ilk genuinely interested in bringing women into technology? Do they genuinely like either a other women, or b technology? Do you know what women who actually want to help other women learn programming look like?

They look like this. Recognizing that women are different from men in more areas than the chest compartment, check. It makes the sentence hard to parse otherwise.

Do you really think Scott has not thought about this? Scott has previously pointed out that Ozy likes girlfriend, but is still zie. Why not honor zir preference? It seems like a small enough cost. The cost felt high; I had to reread the sentence a few times. Honouring a simple preference is one thing, but a preference that requires us to write inconsistent sentences yes, I know English has no rules and is defined by usage feels like the wrong side of the Schnelling line.

As you, apparently, know? Whatever you call that. Linguistics is one of the first vectors of social control, so it makes perfect sense for people who disapprove of the current social model to try to take control of language. The easiest response to much of this is to formally come out against linguistic prescriptivism and in favor of natural usage…and not cede words to folks trying to twist normal usage. Directly calling someone wrong is a mistake.

And getting into a debate with a non-rationalist about the way words do or should work is a giant time investment. So, the question is, empirically, how does language work. We did not have a word for racism until recently, bigot did not mean what it now means.

Prejudice used to mean the opposite of what now means. Pretty clearly, when a gang of black men attack a white boy and beat him to death because he is white, they are not being racist.

They are being anti racist. His intention was aimed at third party externalities. As I understand it, the black people in question were generally high-status basketball players, so that argument seems weak. But crucially, this is a question of the private vs the public sphere.

When the NSA spies on everyone it has a chilling effect on what people will be willing to discuss in the private sphere. To a lesser degree, so does the Sterling scandal. A private sphere is probably very important for working out sensitive positions. Certainly a deliberately racist public statement is hurtful. Of course denying housing based on race as Sterling was accused of doing was hurtful.

Denying jobs based on race, etc. The argument against racist comments in private is much weaker though. On the one hand, it could serve to propagate a malicious meme. On the other hand, it gives others a chance to help disassemble hurtful ideas. Can racism really be eliminated if no one is permitted to admit to racism even to their loved ones?

How are they supposed to talk it through? The implication was not at all that Sterling is no more racist as everyone else. It makes it obvious that you just wanted sex in the first place.

No, we move on after the failed attempt to date you starts making things incredibly awkward, and constantly grinds on our dignity and self-esteem.

And this is a big part of it. That would be gross. Maybe stop coming up with stupid cliches and stereotypes to lump all these people into, and invalidate their struggles and experiences. Because it actually fucking hurts over here, too. But those misogynistic frat-boys and creepy stalkers?

Fuck off, Nice Guy tm! This has been my experience fighting against the Patriarchy and the disdain for low-status males, while trying to get a date. This signals an appreciation for their autonomy and feelings. Separating between the general, long-term desire for a relationship and the specific desire for a relationship with that person helped a few times. Am I supposed to not have desires? That… sounds so low-status. I would never do that. What success rate do you have with that?

Being low-status is not caused by your actions. Your actions are constrained by your status. You would never say something like that, because you would never get maced for failing to say something like that. Is this for real? The arranged marriages I have seen are far from your informal dating, but everything I have seen points to you having to do something very, very wrong to actually get people angry.

I spend most of my time in low-mainstream-status subcultures. I live in a low-status intersection and as a general rule the more any given person intersects with me, the lower status they are.

This in a relatively calm town, too. The difference has never escaped me. There is no other difference at all. Ugh, on second thought, no — that would turn anyone evil. This assumption is used as a weapon.

Coming out of high school, I had nearly no social skills. Implying to a highly sought after woman that you think she is in your league when you are low status may be considered by some as very wrong.

Ialdabaoth, Zorgon, Andy, thank you for sharing your experiences. I have significantly updated my concern on how big the worry of seeming like a creep is for many people. I had previously been quite unconvinced. This follows even if status is zero-sum, since it distances second-circuit imprinting from ability.

That is a more accurate set of statements, yes, but I do not have the status necessary to muster the courage to speak them myself. Unlike most of the insinuations I see on this blog, I genuinely have no idea what the referent of this is. I would like a hint, if you can safely offer one. They have, however, shifted the method of their violence. Christ, Ialdabaoth… I think the problem might have less to do with you or with society and more with the possibility that you might be trying to date horrible, awful women!

What the fuck is wrong with them? I agree with Multiheaded. While I think an overwhelming majority of women will be bothered and possibly offended by a really low status man hitting on them, I emphatically do not think most of that overwhelming majority are actually sadists who would be amused at the low status man being beaten.

I vaguely remember you mentioning in another thread a preference for considerably younger women. This is… probably not helping you. They are normal people. You are not terrible. You are just running on corrupted hardware. And when you see the chance to punish the powerless, you will , and you will find a way to justify it that makes it feel like they deserved it. Secondly, from what I understand of mace, it would be difficult to avoid hitting oneself with some of the mace in the process of using it, making it a weapon of last resort against a clear and unexpected threat rather than a first resort against a weak and self-flagellating proposal of courtship.

Where are you approaching these people? What are you saying to them? I submit that violence against an unwanted advance is not the norm. I have no personal experience with normal people but I do take in media where violence in response to an unwanted advance is played for laughs because it is incongruous not because it is normal.

On a more general note: Individual variation in, for lack of a better term, baseline benevolence, clearly exists just as much as individual differences in intelligence or strength do. I tend to get terrified, spend some time pushing through that terror, then move on.

It depends on the delivery system. The mace situation itself was in a nightclub. I wonder whether it would help to present it as a Rejection Therapy exercise. Extremely low-status neckbeard type here low-income, very nerdy, and conventionally unattractive , to throw in yet another anecdotal data point. I have been yelled at once in my life, when I was 14 or 15, by a girl I was flirting with.

And without getting into details, in hindsight I think she was right — my flirting at the time was intrusive and gave her no graceful way to get away from me. I have seen some women in tech say they face constant life-ruining harassment. And I have seen other women in tech say none of the men they have met have ever given them the slightest trouble and the myth of women being harassed in tech is clearly some kind of weird feminist con.

At this point, I just accept that people will have very unpredictably different experiences based on the very particular community they are in, personal qualities like attractiveness and wealth and status, their own personal style of interaction, and the thickness of their skin.

I suspect people are not personally able to measure the thickness of their own skin very well. Their cognitive tradeoff between paranoia and gullibility in terms of distinguishing obviously-in-good-fun-jokes from serious insults might be calibrated way to one side or the other.

Or they might be the sort of person finely attuned to what one might politely call microaggressions. I guess this is a skin-thickening life-hack, although I developed it spontaneously rather than purposefully:. I have an unbounded mental bingo card of insults, so whenever someone insults me in a novel way, I have a moment of excitement: All three tend to be somewhat uncommon reactions 2. I tend to only be attracted to exceptionally high-status and attractive women.

She expected me to be disliked. Now that I think about it, generally incompetent. If there are women of similar attractiveness, how do you conclude that some of them are more attainable than others?

What happens if you spend a little longer observing your reactions to the more and less attainable women? Improvisation and the Theatre has a lot about specific behaviors which indicate high and low status— the idea is that status an ongoing interaction between people. The tone of this comment snippet: It makes me sad when I read stuff like this because it reminds me of the years I spent trapped in that same mindset.

As do most of my lesbian friends, come to think of it. The serious barriers appear to be being conventionally unattractive, and being shy around women. And when those things come together, they can form a feedback look, which can make things even worse. I said their side was right — i. That is a fascinating thing. Simultaneously, reams of openly feminist men are married, and I would stake money they have lower divorce rates. Presumably true feminist men are even rarer, so I need to correct for selection effects.

Half might be reasonable, one day! Enough to keep PUAs in steady lays. If you say you do and your body language backs it up, they take you for a sucker. One possible reaction is to then metaphorically sucker punch you for shits and giggles. Even many women who do feel themselves morally equal on average want a morally superior man who will treat them as the inferior they are, due to hypergamy.

Barry, can I get you to ask some of these couples how they initiated their first date-equivalent? That seems unclear, let me try a couple more times. If they were traditional marriages, I would ask about how the dude asked the chick out the first time. But also possible are; the chick asked the dude out, or it just happened, or something I failed to imagine. If I attempt to treat ANY women as morally inferior, even after explicit negotiation, other women who believe that all women should be treated as morally equal will attack me.

If I attempt to treat all women as morally equal, the ones who believe they should be treated as morally inferior will attack me. NEITHER party would ever attack an actual alpha, because they correctly recognize that anyone with that much power will harm them.

And the whole point other people are making is that this, or its amplification, is often an effect of feminism. Do I have to post the same links as always?

Or if you assume that progressivism is formulated by morally impeccable consequentialists who have come to the conclusion that the best way to gain enough power to make the world a better place is to shift societal status mechanisms in a direction that allows and incentivizes them or their followers to curbstomp people who disagree with what is clearly morally right.

Stop reading anything on the internet to do with feminism and go read some books and blogs on game. You can easily torrent it. Find your local pick up community. If you are nervous about talking to women you can borrow a little trick from me — take some tylenol or aspirin before you go out to meet women. These are all explicit near-mode preferences that we agree suck in far-mode. So typical Hansonian hypocrisy kicks in — which Social Justice has explicitly precommitted to rooting out.

Treat it as such. The same is true for a number of other things, like nutrition and the relative merits of programming languages. Nydwracu, this relates to what you said too! And of course PUA gets results for weak men; it sets up fake boundaries, projects a fake A.

This is one side; the non-gendered mechanism of intermittent reinforcement is another, even worse one. The combination of your handle and your message helps solidify the impression that Decent People have been forming about the LW-sphere for a while now. I mean, gosh, if that was his problem it would be much easier to buy a plane ticket to Michigan and fuck me than to learn game.

In my observations, foreveralone people are often pretty happy if they have respect, emotional validation, companionship, and regular physical contact; after all, you can masturbate. So the idea is that men should commit to being beta nice-guys, and women will in return commit to only sexing the beta nice guys and all the alpha badboys will be left sad and lonely?

Again, read Hanson about how humans are great at self delusion for precisely this reason. They provide meaningful, intense positive emotions that women really enjoy. Yes they are also assholes a lot of the time, but I think overall the impact is positive.

Alpha badboys are fulfilling a need the same way chocolate bars do — in far mode you would rather have celery, but if we all had to eat celery every day life would be distinctly worse. This is why the fantasy of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl is so appealing — most Forever Alone guys understand painfully well that the more desperate they get, the more unattractive they are, and the more unattractive they are, the more desperate they get, and realize that it will take an external rescuer to break that cycle.

If you want to disagree with me in a rational way by setting out the case against what I say, then be my guest. Or even just outline what you think our disagreements are and whether they concern denotations or connotations? I mean, and also because girls who have been expected to be a Manic Pixie Dream Girl I put myself in this category, tho I am not a girl are legitimately screwed over. The MPDG has no desires of her own, no boundaries, nothing but a constant flow of unconditional positive regard.

You had some shreds of Sklavenmoral. Always looking over your shoulder for what society would prescribe for a Nice Guy. Then you clearly decided to prey on the vulnerable. You have never actually undergone any transformation, just as Ialdabaoth here would seriously rather die than manipulate a woman in this way. It is likely that you were never a decent person, your claws were just weak.

I can do Principle of Charity, or I can do stealing the shiny bits of your ideas and carrying them off to my idea magpie nest, but my brain does not come in steelman form. To be fair, the latter are harder work than the former. Conditional on you being right and me being wrong, you are making it maximally hard for me to change my mind.

And worse, society still conditions girls to do this. The last relationship I was in started with a girl desperately wanting to be my Manic Pixie Dream Girl.

I spent two years holding her at arms length, convincing her to date other people, generally making sure that she was seeking out more healthy alternatives, because I did NOT want to set her up to discover how impossible those roles are to fulfill until she had gained enough maturity to not try to fulfill them.

And I knew this. But I did it anyway, because after two years of her offering, I was weak. Okay, I get it. You hate each other.

Rationalist fork for ya http: My own formative experience with this stuff was largely in the comments section on Slacktivist; this was before it moved to Patheos. And my reaction to that is, yeah, near-mode is shitty and prejudiced!

But the problem is that feminists in general have kind of required us to open our brain to whatever principles other feminists want to stuff in there if we want to not get shouted at. Sometimes they do essentially present something like a guidebook, just not a realistic one. Sure, other groups use equally destructive tactics, but we recognize those groups as barbaric and put up walls to keep them out!

Whereas feminism routes around or subverts the usual defenses, or even perverts them to its own ends. But this is truly awful stuff. Like, there are spots in the region that allow this. Deciding that a facet of human nature sucks does not magically change human nature. The failure of Communism should have made that clear, and the failure of Social Justice advocates to follow their supposed ideals simply piles on the evidence.

How much more do you need to see before you update on the fact either the goal is impossible, or else everyone else is defecting away from the commitment? What point is there in unilateral martyrdom? A life-long monogamous marriage may not be the enlightened sexual utopia social justice advocates would like, but it is a far kinder, happier, and more functional state of affairs than the natural human mating equilibrium which used to exist in our hunter-gatherer days, and to which we are returning as our civilization collapses.

We were living in trees when they met us. With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch. I think I remember the general outline, though I may be missing a paragraph or two, and I think the original was better-written. Hence the apparently-late reply. Anyway, possible you may not see this, but, hey, next time this comes up, I can link to it…]. First off, people are not logically omniscient. Basic mathematical principles, most anyone would agree with them. Is the Ramsey number R 5,5 even or odd?

I think you get the idea. Otherwise mathematics would be trivial. And in many cases it can be impossible to determine the relevant facts in any reasonable time.

Listen to what feminists have to say on the matter! This, really, is the fundamental feminist equivocation.

Feminists like to claim that feminism is just common sense — and much of it is! So now imagine that our hard-to-quickly-decide question is an ethical one.

Err on the side of safety, of course. You know what I really want to see, whenever I post something like this? An acknowledgement that the problem exists. Yet few feminists seem to be willing to do even that. This is the doctrine of lived experience. Us privileged sorts are not expected to understand because we are not able to, lacking the lived experience of the oppressed. We just have to take their word on what is bad and what is not without understanding.

And no you cannot rely on us to have common sense to keep out the awful stuff, because, as Ialdabaoth has pointed out, to a large extent feminism and similar is about — not necessarily wrongly!

Either guide me through it or let me figure it out on my own. Also, ethics is much simpler than mathematics. So when acting, you err on the side of what you believe to be safety based on the ethical principles you accept , which may not be the same thing as what the SJW thinks is safety. Meanwhile, you make some good points, so let me take a moment to respond to them.

What are you going to do in the meantime? Which takes us back to the problem. I mean, maybe the solution is to recognize that a movement that responds to requests for clarification by accusing you of being evil is not one that you should listen to! But that took me quite a while, and, perhaps more to the point, their arguments do make a substantial amount of sense. But I was taking a more standard feminist point of view, according to which, I do have an obligation not to creep someone out, but I have absolutely no obligation to not disappoint someone mating-wise, because the idea that I do is pretty rapey!

And now I have no realistic estimate. Not really a correct description of what they were doing, but…. But instead they basically failed to engage with it. It seems to be lessened but maybe not eliminated. Would that be an accurate summary? That seems oddly all-or-nothing? Meanwhile, my own experience is that if you go to a decently feminist place and try to get them to make decently watertight arguments things will quickly get hostile, so…: But try explaining that…. But if I had to provide a quick summary, here are the points that come to mind:.

But I think the most important one right now is:. This leaves them unable to properly test their own principles, as they never actually apply their own principles; they apply their principles moderated by such heavy doses of their common sense as to be barely recognizable by someone not possessing said common sense.

When they do illustrate with examples, the examples are extreme and thus obvious and unhelpful. Where are the minimal contrasting pairs? Still, I maintain that one could come substantially closer than they have. And the shutting down of actual discussion in favor of guilting us into agreement makes us a bit more like computers than would otherwise be the case.

Failure to calibrate fuzzy abstractions against real-world examples. Or at least not helpful examples, see above. I could probably expand on this, but, I need to sleep. How to tell if he has a girlfriend? Time will tell you everything you need to know Anita just be patient and wait. He doesnt have to tell you he will show you. Does that sound right? You said you were flirting so flirt on girl! Now i dont know what to think and what to believe.

What you need to do is stop listening to what he says and use your own intuition. This is a losing battle for me, because women will never get it, apparently. I find it amazing that literally daily, chicks are confused about why guys do what they do.

Maybe if women were to concentrate on potential benefits. Saying that he does? Saying he has a girlfriend? Do you think this situation is going to get better as time goes on? Once you have kids? My suggestion is to have a sit-down with this guy and request a discussion about his overall philosophies. WHY is he a vegetarian? WHY does he have a girlfriend? For example, I like to eat a boiled egg in the morning.

And I usually have it with toast and jam. Same thing with getting laid. I realise that this is extremely important for guys, but I have no idea why. It is not important to me. I like sex, but sex as merely a physical pleasure has never interested me that much. If it is just that and nothing else, what do you need another person for? Sex as just a physical pleasure is no more exciting than a good meal.

So this is the reason that I sometimes forget why guys do what they do. That they pretend and lie and deceive and invent alter egos and what not just to get something that means so little to me. All the energy spent for just that? Then he said that hed guessed he would have to. We met at the same bar but I pruposedly had my sister meet us later so that we wouldnt sleep together. We decied to meet a few days later and after lots of good wine and conversation, we did sleep together, at my place.

This went on for about once a week for 2 months, and he was making plans to go to all this places with me. He seemed to really like me, and me him. Problem, he would nver take me to his house, 2 miles up the street. He would say next time, next time, but next time never happened.

Als, hed never spend the night at my house. Hed always leave pretty soon after sex. So about the 5th night, after he left my place, i was pissed and sent him a text saying that i never wanted to see him again.

I suspected he had someone else. Next day I felt bad, and stupid me called him and told him I regretted it. He said he was shocked. That Id caught him off guard. Which I did , about 3 times. He was always distant and cold in sex.

The 4th time I called him, he told me he was busy. I never called him again. I know I hurt his pride, and that he probably did have somene else. But did I hurt him emotionaly? He should have just given you HIS number and had that be that. As soon as he played you out the pocket like that and you still sweated him, you put yourself on the ho stroll. Some guys will be chivalrous about this and treat you with respect, being that they appreciate your accolades.

Other guys will see you as a MARK and see what they can get out of you.. You know what, this is my public apology-I am very sorry for the way in which i presented my words. After further review I must admit that I was a little ruff in how I laid out my opinion. First let me start by saying that I completely disregarded the fact that you had been out of the game for 6 years. I am by no means an expert in the field but I know the game from a males perspective and i know the effects of the game from being raised by a single mother and having an older sister.

So, again, I am quite sorry for having been blunt but I do hope you understood what i was attempting to say. Which reminds me I should go dig out my footage of KL in concert from a few years back when I first started videoblogging that I never posted.

My take on this is that it sounds like he tried to be faithful to someone he is seeing or living with and fell off the wagon, it was good for awhile but then realized he aint leaving home.. Do you really want someone who doesnt really want you? Bill the guy from Ca flew to Az to see me flew in sun at 2pm flew out mon at 3pm. He had lied about his height, his 5ft 11 was more like 5ft 5 and he was older way older than what he said.

I asked him didnt he think I would notice the discrepancy? I believe he was a married man just acting out…lol p. Nobody cares about telling you the truth. Keep your eyes on the prize. Stop excepting guys to tell you the truth. Expect them to tell you whatever they need to so they can tap that. This dude tells u upfront he wont call you!! So you called him strike one. You cant go to his place but he can come tap dat azz at yours strike two. If this was a baseball game you would have been struck out with 3 straight fastballs down the middle, no curves needed!

He may have a gf, he may not! He might actually be divorced but his kids live with him, they may not! The fact is that he found a piece that had her own place… honestly I would never be mad at him. He is a guy, game pours out the pores!

The real concern here was that you were willing to play along. As a guy, we are aware of the fact that every situation is potentially not gonna end the way it started. You and woman in general would get further if you just understood that every situation should be viewed with extreme caution from the beginning and not when you suddenly feel something later!

Its more like having a side piece was the enjoyable move until said piece started acting crazy by texting, immediately after having gotten got, that she would no longer be calling AND then calling the next day. If he was going home to his REAL comapnion, that text had the potential to make his home life miserable.

Got it a couple more times and realized it was no longer worth the headache of going home late. Well I didnt want to tell her what you told her so bluntly…lol but what you said is true if you keep throwing it in their face they are going to screw it…and he told her he wasnt going to call didnt want that phone call on his phone smart man.

So true — women always throw out their relationship status in a conversation when they are not directly asked. Women associate more importance to being in a relationship, methinks. A close friend of mine once told me that whenever he meets a woman for the first time, he makes sure to mention his wife within the first 15 minutes of their conversation. This way, he signals that he is spoken for so that she does not get her hopes up and knows that they can be friends but not more.

It is just the way decent people behave. And the fact that more women behave like that probably means that there are more decent women than men.

This can be easily avoided by saying up front that he already has someone. There are lots of guys that have girlfriends and kick it to whatever other girls they want. Its been my experience that if a woman wants to get with you, it dont matter if you are married or not. Im married… I dont have anything to offer you other than that immediately available time. You with it or you not…. Take it or leave it.

Get down or lay down. I even wore a ring on a chain around my neck because as you noted, some woman like that! Third, you have no idea who I am. And they know who they are. As usual I must tip my cap to YOU!! To even entertain that nonsense takes some serious level headedness that many dont have!! Pero mira cono, a decir que mi amigo Bill solo le gusta las blancas por que no pude con las demas… LOL.

Ok, I have a situation here. My ex and I work together and we broke up summer of because we were worried about our jobs. Well in April of this year he started to pursue me again and wanted to hang out again. I asked tons of my friends and none of my friends know how to play golf, so he suggested that he would teach me which was fine. Because we were spending time together I was entertaining the thought about getting back together with him. We talked and we agreed that if one of us was going to date someone else that we would tell one another about it.

Well for about a month or so now I have had this feeling that he was seeing someone. He was receiving 40 text messages a day. So I asked him if he was seeing someone and he told me I was assuming I was. The waiter ended up seating them two tables behind me. I felt so uncomfortable and lied too.

Anyway I went outside and his sister came outside too and we talked for awhile. But she was telling me that he had been seeing this girl for about a month. During which he was telling me he cared about me and wanted to be with me. If he was honest with me, I would be a little disappointed but I would be happy for him, but now I feel like he is lying to me.

The girl has even come to our work in the parking lot. Why would he lie about it to me? He is just confusing me. You said the guy walked into the restaurant with his daughter. This means he knows the difference between having sex and not. Guys who have had sex generally like it and want more of it. This is why he needs to keep his girlfriends on the DL from you, at least… You see he has no problem going out on the town with them in public.

Next thing chicks know, a guy gets tired of sneaking around behind her back with chicks that he enjoys having sex with and dumps the main chick out of the blue. It sounds to me like something that I would say to break up with a chick that I wanted out of the way so I could start having some other chick I was dating come to my job.

This particular guy is apparently not a virgin, so you can forget about him dating you exclusively without having sex with other chicks.

He may very well consider you to be the BEST gal he knows. He may very well intend on marrying you in the future.. Thanks Bill for answering this. I never understood that, I thought it was the lamest excuse.

He broke up with me after I met his mom at his apartment one night and she told her husband that he was seeing a new girl. And then his dad started asking him questions about me and how he knew me. When he told his dad that we worked together his father advised him not to date someone he worked with, that from his experience being in business that it was best not to and that this job was more important than a relationship with some girl.

It was so weird everything was fine and then the weekend when his mom met me and he talked with his dad, he broke up with me. Who knows if that was a bunch of crap.. Everyone in the office knows that we have liked each other off an on for the past year and a half. He knows my values and my boundaries and I made that very clear from the very beginning. And yes we have made out before. He never introduces her to them at all. He is hiding her.

My parents raised me to be a lady and to be mature…so that is not something I would do. His daughter is from his marriage and his wife died four years ago. So essentially he is trying to hide his behavior. He has made an invested effort to get to know my best friends and family as well. I just have a different perspective on things and you know what that is ok. I have a biblical perspective and I know that sounds old fashion but that is what I believe.

And No I will not be dating him again. We have very different values and wants in life and if he is being secretive about this, what else is he being secretive about. I really do appreciate your insight. It makes sense in so many ways. To load your profile photo, you have to go to http: After you do that, any site that uses gravatars will have your smiling face on your posts!

Sucks to be them. You feel how you feel and you have your reasons for that. I have no idea why that happens, but it happens. Not you as an individual.. This is Standard Operating Procedure for any chick. The playing field tends to be much easier that way. Stephanie, couple of questions: In my almost 40yrs on this planet, my mother has met exactly 4 females i dated and they are in order 1-crazy chick who followed me home from school college!

I never set out to decieve anyone or hide who I really am. The fact that his daughter knows who that girl is, elevates her to a status just above booty call at the very least. Also, you say if he wanted to be with you he would change… uhm, thats not a valid idea or suggestion.

As unfair as it would sound to you that he wants you to engage in sexual intercourse with him, its sounds just as unreasonable to him that you are not interested.

Look at the facts, he has a daughter, meaning he done it at least once!!! You cant really expect him to not want to again. Wheres the win for him?? Thanks Bill and Frank for responding. His sister are my friends now and want to hang out with me all the time. He invited me to his family picnic in July and his mom, and sister came up to me and gave me a big hug and they all talked to me for a long time.

His daughter is very sweet and always comes up to hold my hand or give me a hug. His dad on the other hand is hard to read. My ex dated a girl when he was in college and she chased him and he let her, she then got pregnant and they got married. I believe that is why he is secretive about his relationships. I mean I will compromise on a lot of issues but that for me is sacred.

My faith in Jesus Christ is the most important thing in my life. It defines who I am. I want him to be happy and if this girl makes him happy then that is great. Thanks for the response Steph. First let me start by saying, good for you!! Good that you have such a strong sense of faith that you are unwavering in your dedication to it.

On the other hand, for those of us that dont believe I am one , to those who have felt the need to consolidate their beliefs with the expectations and personal desires make are to be commended as well. The problem is when one a memeber of one group decides to get involved with a memeber of another. Either there has to be a little give and take or it becomes a strained relationship. As friends he may get a better understanding of how strong your faith is and you might understand that although his beliefs may not be a strong as yours, it does not mean that he has no religion.

I think the two of you have something to offer each other. Not to say you cant find one in the mainstream but it will spare you the process of having to wead out those that only have one thing in mind. Although the wolves in sheeps clothing will apply to some in your faith based world as well. I totally believe that like-minded people should date each other. Believers should date Believers, and Non should date Non.

It has to start with the individual. Chicks are going to like me regardless of what I write in blogs. Personality is usually completely underestimated when compared to looks.

Very interesting to see the males point of view and so bluntly for that matter, i appreciate that, just the truth and facts. Well ive found myself in a simular situation as the previous women in this blog.

I am a 31yr old that was divorced last year and began dating again after eight years. Ive been seeing a man my brother introduced me to 7 months ago that is a couple years older than me who had been through a breakup months prior to meeting him. So on our first date i wasnt suprised when he brought up that he also had gotten out of a long relationship as well months prior, but was shocked to hear he still lived with her because of lease agreement. I know, BIG red flag. But he explained that he is not with her, nor does he want to work things out and that shes hardly ever there.

We get along the best that i have ever with anyone. He has explained how much he wants to introduce me to parents but wants to wait till his situation has changed, cause they are old fashion? Ive explained i want a normal relationship, without restrictions. I wish i knew exactly what was going on in that head of his. Ive asked when his situation is gonna change and the date has changed from month to month.

Ive asked if she knows if he is dating or knows about me and he explains that he doesnt want to hurt her or cause more problems in his stressful life already. So she doesnt know about me and ive never been over to his house. Wouldnt a couple that has broken up and still live together have a talk of seeing other people or not? We constantly txt all the time which i find annoying since we could have that same conversation within five mins vs. The other thing is ive noticed he usually calls after a certain time when she leaves for work, she works at night and then when staying over at my place he does leave at a certain time.

Ive complained that it bothers me and would want him to stay but he says that he has stomach problems and needs his meds? Anyway, just recently ive told him I need a definite time on when his situation is gonna change or we need to wait to pick this up when it has changed.

This has gone on for seven months now and its very confussing. Why would a man express me being the love of his life, talk about marriage and then not change his living situation?

I dont know what goes on in that house and its starting to bug the hell out of me. I just dont get the whole thing, would someone whos playing a game really talk about love and marriage? Isnt that going a bit toooo far? I dont know what to do, is there something else i could do to find out whats going on, besides spying which id never do? Ive noticed its been several months since last reply on this discussion but would really appreciate some insight from a mans point of view on this situation.

Back in the day, I had a girlfriend. At some point she informed me that she wanted the two of us to not be romantically involved.. I asked her if she was sure. She said she was. I told her to explain herself and she did. I asked her at least two more times if she was sure and she said she was.

As a matter of fact, the. He might have put himself on a self-ban as far as having women over so that she agrees to not have MEN over. He has to make sure she likes everything he does, so he has to keep you on the DL. The best way to get a chick to lay down is to tell her that you want what she wants. Three chicks that I definitely saw every week and a lot of people knew I was dating each chick and some people knew I was dating all of them.

He has to keep all his plates spinning on the sticks. No ex-girlfriend that he still lives with for monetary reasons. I learned that back when I was a teenager and I thought I was dating this chick when I was actually the rebound guy until she could patch up her relationship with her ex.

He Left You Weeks Ago! The question you have to ask yourself is whether the pros are outweighing the cons. What can he tell you about this dude now and can you get him to do some unobtrusive digging? Other than that, sigh, I have to agree with Bill. Maybe she does his laundry. Go out and tackle a dude who also looking to retire and can give you the whole whammy. Thanks for the reply and insight to my question. Im not use this game or have been played. He is 35 and acts like hes 10 getting his hand caught in the cookie jar with all the excuses.

Also he gets rather defensive when i have brought it up. Which has been this last month. And then he starts with i cant lose u and dont want to imagine life without me. And i guess hes also suprised that i didnt bring it up before till now. Anyway,there are two months left on his lease and only time will tell. Like i said it went fron December and then to January, and since there has been no move on his part i started asking. My brother was really surprised to find out he still lived with her.

They know each other but i guess is not one of his best friends. I told him when i found out, and he appologized cause he was unaware. Ive also felt recently since there is this want for privacy on his part to keep me a secret, to family and friends, that he is still wanting and even waiting for things to be diff between them. If they are not still together that is. And yes ive definitely thought that they still have had sex in the last year of living together, but do want to trust and believe what he says, for the most part.

I know cause it sounds and feels better. I really do appreciate the feedback and wish there were some for sure way to know whats going on without the wait.

Steve brings up a VERY important point. There are so many glaring errors here that I missed speaking on it entirely. Get used to it. You were supposed to fall for the lies and keep giving it up. He might have to wait until the kids go to sleep to speak to you. The purpose of the records is for guys to get laid. I hate to be so repetitive and redundant about this point, but women never get it. Your experience is the same either way. When was the last time you heard of a zebra eating a lion?

My suggestion to you is to figure out some things that you REALLY want to know and base your decisions on how you relate to him on the answers to those questions. Well thanks again for replying and giving me ur insight on how men think. I really appreciate you telling me basically how it is. Well I really thought about what you had to say. Since we do not have mutual friends in common I thought of how I could find out somthing to put my mind at ease and get some truth of whats really going on.

I decided to txt a pic of him to his supposibly ex-gfriend and she called back. Come to find out they have been together this whole time. To me I was shocked, and yes Im sure you are saying I told u so. Anyway, she asked questions and I told her I only knew what he said, which was he said they seperated a year ago.

OMG so yeah, this could have been me in a couple of months if I kept believing all he would tell me. So now everything makes since, kinda sucks but feel much better knowing Im washing my hands of him.

Just facts and truth as they appeared to me based on what you said. I would have rather you came back and reported that all these indicators actually misled my opinion of the situation and all was actually fine with your relationship. The odds were WAY against you. These are all rudimentary, commonplace tactics that are straight out of a textbook or template.

Guys do this all day, every day, across the country and most likely around the world. Mainly, you either have chicks on the roster or you have one girlfriend. At the time I was dating the three chicks, I knew which one was more important than the others and allocated my time and actions accordingly.

Would I bring one around to parties? Would I take the other one downtown but not to parties? The jig is up. The more important a chick is, the more you treat her like your actual girlfriend or wife. Your wife gets to go to holidays. Your wife gets to go places where your parents are. Back in the day, after a really great date, I took a chick shopping. That might be his natural reaction to being with a gal that turns him on or that he enjoys as a person or comrade or sidekick.

As far as the topic of the post.. If you want to try to figure out if he has other girls besides you, try to spend more time with him. Guys that have girlfriends are obliged to give them certain days and times or else they might get caught cheating. This whole article has been very informative. I got alot of male insight since i dont have brothers.

Im a serial monogamist. I give myself dap for busting him so soon.. He asked me if i had a facebook and on the internet alot bc he wasnt. He told me he doesnt have any family when his family is all on his myspace lol its like he wouldnt let me make connections with him so that instantly put my radar up. I saw his son which he was honest and told me he had a kid. I dont like guys with kids thats my bottom line but i let this slide. I told him tonight that it dont matter who she is it matters that you are someone elses.

He was too touchy feely too soon for my taste. Im a girl and i like PDA like the next but He sucked my toes the 2nd day of kicking it and wanted to do other things.

Think about what you were like at 26 thinking you were slick? Im a few years older than him and with the internet at my finger tips he thought i was gonna fall for it. Thanks for the comment, SannyD. Women should be able to find out what they need to know about prospective suitors by sitting down at their computers and doing exactly what you just outlined.

I know two different gals that I have mutual Facebook friends with. I attend parties that friends of mine throw.

I was flagged down by this gal a while back while I was at this bar.. She informed me that her homegirl had seen me in the gym that morning. This is way more important for women, because men are generally the aggressors when it comes to raps. Girlfriends, Kids, Family Members.. You establish yourself as having a particular way of being and having particular friends and having particular viewpoints and sharing certain links..

What we have here is a sad attempt at player-dom by Mr. So many people ignore that little voice and come to regret it. I found your site last weekend and am hooked and wish I had been reading it months ago.

So I met someone a year older than me. We talked for a little over a month well just twice on the phone, but he texted almost daily.

Just seemed like a nice guy, down to earth. So once we met we started seeing each other like 3x a week. On our third meeting we kissed. On our 6th meeting we made out and he asked if we could get a room the next weekend, which would be my bday, and I agreed. After our 3rd mtg, he asked if I liked him and that he really liked me and asked when would I meet his kids and vice versa, but I said not yet.

On thursday morning we met and he told me he was on probation for having oral sex with a 17 year old girl. He told me some details, said she threw herself at him and how everyone was on his side, blah blah. He then went on to tell me how he had gone to an orgy and wanted me to go to the next one. Also, that he and his wife would have threesomes and that we could do that, too. I told him about all the guys I had been with and he was like wow you were with a whole baseball team.

I told him I read she was 16 and drunk. He said well yeah, but almost 17 and that they meaning his daughter and the girl were drinking at a party. In the meantime, I had plans to go out with my friends to celebrate my bday.

I had invited one of my booty calls. Probation guy and I talked around 6 and agreed to move forward and he was cooking me dinner the next day. So all weekend I cried and begged him to take me back. In the meantime, I had made contact with a guy 9 years younger that I was seeing in the summer for sex, but he was trying to work things out with his baby momma so I ended it, but always liked him, and had told him I might go over on saturday night.

Since probation sent no way I went to see the younger guy. Sunday and Monday I begged probation to take me back, but he was like nope. I snapped and sent him 10 text messages and 4 voice mails two days in a row so 20 and 8 total just going off on him that he lied about what happened and that he was a coward and on and on. He never replied and I was sad sad.

I emailed him a few more times, but more feeling sorry for myself. Then I emailed his exwife if she could help me get back with him. She and I emailed back and forth and she said move on and told me horrible stuff about him.

He went off on me via text that I ruined his life. We met the following week for sex. I asked him to take me back he was like nope. I begged two more days then gave up. I called him and asked him more about his lies and we went at it again. Nobody cares what you think. Nobody cares if you think a guy should date old chicks. Nobody cares if you think you deserve a title or respect or whatever. What you need to do is check your reality. What do you really want for your life right now?

What else do you want him to do? What is it that you want from this guy? Of course, this applies to dudes too. Also, what do you think of the younger guy who contacts me weekly for sex do you think a ltr can come of it? This is what I mean about how titles are worthless. I wish I could have a weekly hour long session. I suppose I can continue with the younger guy until he ends it and just every time I see him realize it could be the last time.

Who has more of a relationship? I say I do. I think he has the upper hand and will never consider me as more than a fwb. Bill, By what I have read on other posts, he fits the description of a lot of these guys who know just what to say before sex and then change shortly after. Is there anyway for me to gain leverage in this situation?

I want to give up on romantic love altogether. My opinion remains that you need to figure out what you want and whom you want it with. It is true what he said. I googled and read about the incident, he is on a sex offender site.

I know he is back on the dating site. With that information, do you have a different opinion? Just pay attention to what he does and how he treats you and make your decisions based on that.

Dating is a team sport. Personally, this sounds like a lot of game-playing from his side, which is probably not going to end up positively for you. You see how lame that looks? All this game-playing and posturing and positioning in your case is the exact same thing.

If you just want to hang out with him and have fun, the situation might work for you. Hi, think I need some help. Here is my case. And I remember about last year October, I had been moved to his team for couple months, and I had a chance to talk to him. But it was often me initiate the conversation and he would only talk to me if he had questions or concerns related to work, and I always tried to build up the topics and even asked him to help me on this and that.

We discussed the newly released movies and the restaurants I want to try out but he never ask me out or get my phone number or ask me about my personal life. I could say we are just in a normal, very normal coworker relation. Also, I noticed after I mentioned my fav. P , also weird thing is, there was one time a female coworker ask him if it was his girlfriend who bought him the mp3 and he looked at me, like he tried to see my reaction and the female coworker asked why he was looking at me like I was the girlfriend.

Then he just smiled and said no. And seems like every time my coworker tried to test him out if he has a girlfriend or not, he would not give a direct answer, just like avoiding the subject. And one time my female coworker again that same person asked him if he got a girlfriend directly, he told her he got one before but not now. Before, I purposely got off work the same time as his so I could walk with him to the garage, and there was one time we have had an approx.

This was the only time I ever talk to him for that long, maybe is the last too. Sometimes feel like wanting to punch myself cause seems like I am too obsessed. Unfortunately… Sometimes, guys are as afraid of girls as girls are afraid of us. One of which might be that he has a girlfriend.. The good thing here is that he was willing to have a long conversation with you in a garage. My suggestion to you is to find some kind of group social event and invite him to it, like bowling, for instance.

At least that way, if he accepts your invitation, you can be sociable with him without being at work or in a garage. The question of whether he has a girlfriend or not is actually irrelevant at this point. Not for you or anyone else to avoid pitfalls, but for you to at least see them ahead of time so you can make educated decisions. He now claims to have broken up with her and immediately wants to hook up with you.

Fling with an attractive Milf looking for some fun, or on the downside.. That actually depends on a few factors. Fourth, it depends on whether the chick s you decide to screw happen to be PSYCHOS that want to start trouble with your girl when they find out that she exists. I know chicks and if we like each other, we do what we do. So, the multi-chick thing is complicated, but once you get used to it, it becomes second nature. Use your intuition to figure out what role the new chick might play going forward and then act based on what you figured out.

The good part is that I never made that mistake again. Thanks again for the question, Ethan! Seems like I have been generally on the right path, but this will definitely help me out with this chick. Thanks Bill and I ll be looking forward to your multiples post.

Hi Bill, First of all, i have to tell you that i adds your website in my blog as i have many ladies friends and my blog also connected with my facebook. To short the story on, i am a broadcast journlaist in the Malaysian government official media.

I broke engage in and until today, i have yet to found suitable men. He have been my friend list in tagged fro about a few month ago, and because of him, i have to cutt-it off my tagged web and now concentrate for my facebook and blog. What i am trying to say is he has been approachs me since last april saying that i am too attractive to him but admit it he have his girlfriend but not committed because he said, he dont want to commited to any girl even his girlfriend now.

We just chatting in tagged messages and i dont feel anything on him even he is trying his best to attract me but i dont. Lastly, i think i should give myself a chance to other man. I told him i have a promotion exam in this town which is also both of our hometown.

Then the time has come and i back to my home town driving alone takes about 5 hrs i check-in and i pay the hotel deposit use my own first. Bill, i have to say to you that most of gorgeous guy mistakes is they think they are so proud by their look, arrogant and simply just throw bad words to a lady they never met in personally.

He knows i am journalist but he dont know who am i and how far he can determine that the women you slammed is more clever and smarter than you.. Everyone is greeting me congratulation..

Bill, i am sharing you this and i also started followed your link since i put in your web address in my blog. Hope to hear from you soon. It is very interesting for us women, and also men.. Same thing with paying for rent or telephone bills or hotel rooms.

He only said he was going to give you money as bait to get you to do something. They feel privileged and basically accept and reject people at will. Thanks for your reply and thanks also for sharing me another new info that not only me but other single girls should read about men.

I understand what do you means and now eventhough i met a lot of guys either they are attractive or not, for me is not a big deal. So far, i have yet back to my hometown and i know where i can found this guy because i did not know that my girlfriends knowing him-too-well compared to me are not in my hometown but working in other town. Humanizer men is not a new for me and i should take it as a complementing my jobs being a journalist..

Ok here is my concerns now. And this question is playing in my mind day and night, and i never share it to anyone even my closed friend. I am not a person who is easily to share my problems with friends even my own sister.

Nothing else but about guy. Bill, i am sure your will share something new to me, nothing else but men. Nope, i dont have boyfriend! I have been dates with a few guys but yet still.. A third reason would be using the tactic of flattery. You want to make the woman feel like she definitely SHOULD be cherished by some guy to the point that he wants to have her all for himself and lock her down into being his girlfriend.

I have been missing a lot of your new post and other post too. Sometime, i feel i am getting married with my work as what my mum was told. First of all, i like the way Frank was answering those gals question. For me, it is not all about Frank is too blunt on his opinions but it is because he is speaking in his experience as a guy.

No doubt on it. Lately, I met a guy. Of cos, as a career woman, i do not need men to support my monthly expenses nor paying my drinks and foods. But sometime, i wanted to be like other gals who are supported by their men either husband, boyfriends, sugar daddy or else.

I am paying the foods instead of he should play his roles as a gentlemen. I feel so terrible in a nightmare. I dont need to further elaborate on that matter. Just enough, i felt being cheat on his liar sweet talks but no bugs or dollars in his pocket. Now, he is trying to convince me again why he was doing that just for tasting me.

But i told him, all my life only once i really date an Asian guy. The rest is western. My last words to him is the past relationship is my mistake, not yours. What do you think in the first date, women woman paid the foods and drinks? Is the guy is useles? Should i leave him, or continue the relationship?

I know women that make 10 to 50 times as much money as I make per year. I also know chicks that are flat broke. What do you want them to do? Get a job so we can go out for drinks together? The rest of the times we take turns seeing eachother at eachothers houses.

We talk alot about sex, when we see eachother we have sex. I know it sounds like fwb, but he calls us dating. We see eachother mostly on the weekends. Mostly once a wk, sometimes twice a wk we see eachother.

We met through an online dating site. Would he make things official eventually? I never really considered that before. He may have ongoing conversations with other gals happening. I hope things work out the way you want them. One more question concerning this matter: No one I really care about would be missing from my Facebook friends, but guys might be different.

Your insight would help me so much! Your mother always wants you to do well. Your mother wants to know who the mother of her grandkids is going to be. Having said all that.. Hey bill i know the original point of this post was how to tell if he has a girl friend. What are your thoughts on that? I met a guy online for the purposes of establishing a fXXX buddy not the best move ever, sure, but this is what it is.

So we exchanged pics, he was beautiful and had endless positive comments about how attractive he felt I was as well. We exchanged numbers and texted for about a week, not all day everyday, but we were in communication everyday. He tried to rush our meeting date but being that I was busy with school and other things as usual I kept declining and stayed with Friday.

We met up Friday night around 8 and had a couple drinks, went back to my place and yes, we went at it forever. He ended up staying the night, I fell asleep on his chest on my couch and he didnt leave until 2 or 3 Saturday.

I then got a call from him Saturday evening and he already wanted to come back over, I didnt mind so I agreed. We went at it again, watched a bunch of movies, drink some beers, and he ended up spending the night again. In the morning I ordered break fast for us and we ate, chilled some more, and he left around 1 or 2 that afternoon. THEN, Sunday I get a call from him only a few hours after he left and he wanted to come back over again.

I thought this was strange but hes fine as fuck so, again, I didnt mind. It was the same scenario. I was never clingy with him, I probably treated him more like a piece of meat than anything.

If you want dating advice you can take on the go, be sure to check out and if you enjoy them, please don't forget to give a review on Amazon and Goodreads.. And thanks, I can't do it without you. If you're going to understand the male dating experience, a great place to look is online, where, generally, as in real-life, men are the pursuers and women are the pursued. The kicker was that one of her coworkers told me that she sometimes leaves her young children alone to go off and see this guy or that. She stopped talking to me altogether after a while.