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These posts kicked up more of a furor than I anticipated, with a bunch of cross-postings and responses on other blogs. Please allow me to introduce myself. I go by Clarisse. Identifying as feminist and pro-BDSM can be really fraught territory — many avowed feminists regard BDSM with suspicion and some, on the more extreme end, with outright hatred.
Nine Deuce, a popular radical feminist blogger, has been known to assert that sadists are morally obligated to either repress their sadistic desires or kill themselves. I swear, I have the biggest crush on Audacia Ray.
I want to be her when I grow up. In Chicago, I lectured on BDSM and sexual communication, and I created and curated a fabulous sex-positive film series and discussion group that it broke my heart to leave. The film series was so successful that a group of loyalists gathered, formed a committee, and have continued it without me!
My degree is in Philosophy, Religious Studies and Studio Art, not anything gender-related — and when I was in college I remember that I often viewed hard-line feminist assertions with suspicion. The problem is, of course, exacerbated by the fact that definitions of feminism have become so varied and so many different issues have been attached to feminism by different people.
These are some of the reasons I tried to spend my entire Entitled Cis Het Men post series asking questions, rather than making assertions. One commenter who went by Sailorman over at Alas said, on the third post: I read this thread with interest, but it is of course basically a very extended and well written TPHMT argument? I really am just interested in exploring various and often very discrete masculinity-related questions. No, really, I am. In the third one, I failed to make a point that really needed to be made, which is: So what comes clear from that correction is that, yeah — if we want to boil this down to the Oppression Olympics, I do think women have it worse than men and that America is still more centered around and gives more aggregate power to men.
But the whole point of those posts was to evade the Oppression Olympics! He was referring to the third post in particular, I think, in which I talk about how many feminist spaces are arguably hostile to men, and it might be in the interest of feminists to make them less hostile.
In that segment, my language became especially strong: I did things like refer to men as The Oppressive Class, for instance. Oh, my broken feminist heart. I agree with Toy Soldier that this may not have been the best tactic.
In general, I try to support debating as charitably and with as reasonable a tone as possible , which is something I did not succeed at in Part 3. Another comment Toy Soldier posted: It seems more that, like many feminists, she wants to define the problem, define the terms, define the rules of discussion and define the solution. This is partly a reasonable point. I asked a bunch of interrelated but differently-focused questions. And yet there were plenty of men who answered the posts, emailed me, etc.
I confess that, as a man whom I imagine most people would probably define as normative — at least according to the criteria Clarisse has been using in her series — I have trouble with the premise of this question. I have never found feminist discourses around gender and sexuality closed to me. Does it sometimes make me uncomfortable?
Do I think feminist discourse is always accurate in the way it speaks about men? No, but that is not the same thing as saying it is closed to me.
So let me be really, painfully, slowly clear over the course of many paragraphs. I can start by saying that get safe spaces; they are, in fact, extremely relevant for BDSMers. So, for example — given the history of radical feminism and BDSM — I am extremely unlikely to invite a radical feminist into my local dungeon or suggest that she attend a meetup for kinksters. Yet at the same time, I know how exclusion feels, too.
Actually, the compromise was easy. My aforementioned sex-positive film series makes a pretty good case study for this, I think yes! When I started the film series and a related meetup called Pleasure Salon , I characterized both of them as open sexuality discussion spaces for everyone. I promoted them heavily in radical sex communities, and I specifically invited every radical feminist I could think of — not just by listing radical feminists among the target audiences in the invitations, but also by personally calling any number of traditionally second-wave spaces around Chicago.
Not as many radical feminists attended as I would have liked, but some did, and I received feedback in person, by email, etc. The events also drew a healthy population of men, by the way. Not by trying to repurpose feminist safe spaces at least not without the consent of the feminists within those spaces , but by finding other ideas — e. Those ideas would have to be carefully chosen — it would be very easy to choose a central issue that seems so biased in itself, it turns off the majority of potential attendees.
As Richard Jeffrey Newman at Alas said: And as a commenter here, sylphhead, said: In other words, I think we can make spaces to discuss these things that are open to everybody, and we can still make feminism only available to people who agree with the basic tenets of feminism. I do not think these things are mutually exclusive. As long as we are eloquent and open-hearted and we are, right? We feminists may need to prepare ourselves for some tough messages and some disappointment, though, because ….
Commenter Sam linked to an interesting and relevant comment some dude left on another blog: The fact that the old script is gone can be laid on feminism. As a feminist I think it would be a good strategy to have a replacement, in this case.
Recently, Sinclair Sexsmith was writing about masculinity over at CarnalNation and said that, Though I feel very strongly that there is a place in feminism for these experiences and for all of us to be included, I understand the qualms and hesitations. And I firmly stand my ground: I understand what this movement is trying to do: I want to be involved in that. We may disagree on the means by which we achieve that goal, but there is room for me in this revolution, in this re-visioning of what gender means.
But the question of creating conversations about masculinity is separate from the question of attracting men to feminism. And I am sure that if feminists want to influence the masculinity discourse, we have to be open to it. And they may or may not incorporate feminist ideas when they do. There are a ton of comments on those three posts, many of them interesting. Although there are a lot of aspects to these responses that irritate me, particularly the failure to — you know — even try to answer the vast majority of my questions, I think there were some fair and decent points made as well.
The comments are an often-offensive minefield, however, as Daran himself later acknowledged. American Sociological Review, , Volume 68 August , pages Although there are a lot of aspects to these responses that irritate me, particularly the failure to — you know — even try to answer the vast majority of my questions. No, My Part 1 was a response to the first question only in your Part 1.
My Part 2 was a response to the second question in your Part 1. I had intended to work through them all, one after the other in order, as many as time would permit. But then I hit a stumbling block. I have accused you of no such thing. I do disagree that men have it better than women. The two remarks by you I quoted in my post read to me as follows:. The post asks a question…. Daran — No, My Part 1 was a response to the first question only in your Part 1.
From the way it was framed, I thought each post was a response to each of my posts. The general tone of your posts and the way you framed your questions felt accusatory. I guess I am wrong that you meant to make them accusations.
I guess I could have been more charitable in the way I interpreted you. In fairness, you tended to interpret most things I said in an uncharitable way. But I thought this post answered that question. To wit, quoting myself:.
Is this still unclear? I do not think the discussions can occur without addressing the tension between feminists and men because it will always hover in the background.
Both sides want recognition of their experiences and views, so anything that seemingly avoids that will eventually result in a heated discussion. That said, while I agree that toning done the feminist slant would help, I am unsure whether many feminists would willingly engage do that.
What if a non-feminist person wants to participate in a discussion with feminists, but does not accept the above views as inherently factual or accurate? As for the other issue, I do not think it is a matter of feminists being unable to define the terms of the masculinity discourse due to perceptions about them, but that feminists should not define the terms of the discourse at all.
Masculinity is not about feminism; it is about men, and it makes no sense for feminists to expect to be allowed to create or influence the discourse or define masculinity for men. It is up to men to define their own identities, and if we choose to include feminist concepts that is when feminism should play a role in the process. And it is this kind that has framed most of feminisms ideological frames and epistemological concepts — particularly with respect to sexuality.
Look at the aggressive reception even someone like Judith Butler got from Feminsit academics, simply because she followed their thoughts through to a logical rather than a political end. To exclude female sexual power as a dimension of analysis and power with respect to men , it had to be reframed in terms of violence, something clearly unacceptable.
I doubt this can work. What are admissible dimensions of power? This is why social epistemology cannot be applied to individuals.
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